Modern 128 Expander

[Guest]

Back in the day there was a device that you could slide a 64 into that acted like the port replicators for laptops, but also housed disk drives and a power strip and such.  Today, we have many more things that plug into the back of our 64/128 systems and we have needs for newer and more modern connectors, too.

I'm proposing a project to create a modern 128 port expander with the following built in devices:

1a) IDE64 w/RR-Net.  The port expander would rise about 3 inches above the back of the 128 and the side facing the user would have a CF slot hooked up to the IDE64 as an IDE device.  The inside of the of port expander would have a mounting plate for a 2.5" HD.  The back of the port expander would have the RJ-45 for ethernet.
OR 1b) MMC64 w/RR-Net.  The port expander would rise about 3 inches above the back of the 128 and the side facing the user would have a SD card slot.  The back of the port expander would have the RJ-45 port for ethernet.
1c) Disable switch for the IDE64/MMC64.
2) 25-pin D-Sub with XE1541 circuit.  Just plug in a standard 25-pin pass through cable to the parallel port of a PC running 64HDD!
3) 9-pin D-Sub with standard RS-232 circuit for user port.  Ready for standard RS-232 devices!  A switch would change the output to a GEO Print port.
4) The top of the port expander would have a robust cartridge port.  Inserting a cartridge would automatically disconnect the IDE64.  On the MMC64 version this would be the pass through port.
5) 2-IEC pass through ports.
5a) 25-pin printer port with buffered printer expander.
6) S-Video output
7) Composite and audio output
VGA output for 80-column
9) Switching 110/220 power supply with pig tail to power the 128 as well as powering the 2.5" HD for option 1a.
10) A 2 Meg REU which would be selectable via the IDE64/MMC64 disable switch, although this would also be disabled in the presence of a cartridge in the top port.

Of course, both IDE64 and MMC64 need some firmware updates to operate in 128 mode.  We can hope!

It would be great if someone would create a single PCB with all these functions built into it to save space and allow the device to be as small as possible.  Obviously, a version for the 64 (I believe the bread-bin 64 and the 64c are mechanically identical on the back ports) would be welcome as well (the VGA output would be scan-doubled VIC-II).

So, anyone up for the challenge?

[Mangelore]

1a) IDE64 w/RR-Net.... OR
1b) MMC64 w/RR-Net....
1c) Disable switch for the IDE64/MMC64.

I assume you're referring to some sort of multi-slot cartridge port expander that would support the above devices?

2) 25-pin D-Sub with XE1541 circuit.  Just plug in a standard 25-pin pass through cable to the parallel port of a PC running 64HDD!
3) 9-pin D-Sub with standard RS-232 circuit for user port.  Ready for standard RS-232 devices!  A switch would change the output to a GEO Print port.

2 and 3 are simple to implement.

4) The top of the port expander would have a robust cartridge port.  Inserting a cartridge would automatically disconnect the IDE64.  On the MMC64 version this would be the pass through port.

Why not just incorporate a 3 slot cartridge slot expander?

5) 2-IEC pass through ports.
5a) 25-pin printer port with buffered printer expander.
6) S-Video output
7) Composite and audio output

Should be easy to design.

VGA output for 80-column

Would bring up the total cost a fair bit.

9) Switching 110/220 power supply with pig tail to power the 128 as well as powering the 2.5" HD for option 1a.

Can do.

10) A 2 Meg REU which would be selectable via the IDE64/MMC64 disable switch, although this would also be disabled in the presence of a cartridge in the top port.

Would a GEORAM compatible REU do the job?

Of course, both IDE64 and MMC64 need some firmware updates to operate in 128 mode.  We can hope!

Yes, the lack of native 128 mode support is disappointing.

It would be great if someone would create a single PCB with all these functions built into it to save space and allow the device to be as small as possible.  Obviously, a version for the 64 (I believe the bread-bin 64 and the 64c are mechanically identical on the back ports) would be welcome as well (the VGA output would be scan-doubled VIC-II).

Using a single PCB of that size would be very expensive. The most affordable way would be to design a case that's able to house alll of the required PCB boards. But then again, the tooling required to create a case for this project would also be expensive.

So, anyone up for the challenge?

The time/effort/money required for something like this is quite a challenge

[Guest]

1a) IDE64 w/RR-Net.... OR
1b) MMC64 w/RR-Net....
1c) Disable switch for the IDE64/MMC64.

I assume you're referring to some sort of multi-slot cartridge port expander that would support the above devices?

No, I was thinking that it would be either an IDE64 or MMC64 device.  I would personally prefer IDE64.

2) 25-pin D-Sub with XE1541 circuit.  Just plug in a standard 25-pin pass through cable to the parallel port of a PC running 64HDD!
3) 9-pin D-Sub with standard RS-232 circuit for user port.  Ready for standard RS-232 devices!  A switch would change the output to a GEO Print port.

2 and 3 are simple to implement.

:tummenupp:

4) The top of the port expander would have a robust cartridge port.  Inserting a cartridge would automatically disconnect the IDE64.  On the MMC64 version this would be the pass through port.

Why not just incorporate a 3 slot cartridge slot expander?

Slot expanders are so difficult to use for even moderately technical users, and when I insert a cart in top, I just want it to take over the system like normal.

5) 2-IEC pass through ports.
5a) 25-pin printer port with buffered printer expander.
6) S-Video output
7) Composite and audio output

Should be easy to design.

:tummenupp:

VGA output for 80-column

Would bring up the total cost a fair bit.

:gråta: I know, but it's so important.  I actually decided to type this up because of this one feature.

9) Switching 110/220 power supply with pig tail to power the 128 as well as powering the 2.5" HD for option 1a.

Can do.

:tummenupp:

10) A 2 Meg REU which would be selectable via the IDE64/MMC64 disable switch, although this would also be disabled in the presence of a cartridge in the top port.

Would a GEORAM compatible REU do the job?

I was really thinking 1750 clone here as it's much more widely supported than GEORam.

Of course, both IDE64 and MMC64 need some firmware updates to operate in 128 mode.  We can hope!

Yes, the lack of native 128 mode support is disappointing.

:gråta: Someone please fix!

It would be great if someone would create a single PCB with all these functions built into it to save space and allow the device to be as small as possible.  Obviously, a version for the 64 (I believe the bread-bin 64 and the 64c are mechanically identical on the back ports) would be welcome as well (the VGA output would be scan-doubled VIC-II).

Using a single PCB of that size would be very expensive. The most affordable way would be to design a case that's able to house alll of the required PCB boards. But then again, the tooling required to create a case for this project would also be expensive.

:ironisk: I never said it would be cheap, although with 3D printing becoming much more reasonable it shouldn't be tooooo expensive to get it prototyped and molds made.  What I don't want is something that sticks out 5 inches or more out the back of the 128, which is what happens when you plug an IDE64 or User Port RS232 adapter into a C=.  I think going vertical makes a lot of sense and I think it's prudent to design PCBs for this form factor.

So, anyone up for the challenge?

The time/effort/money required for something like this is quite a challenge

I guess I really need to with the lottery.

[airship]

Yes, but would it end up being as cool as a Spartan Apple ][ Emulator for the C64?

[nikoniko]

Yes, but would it end up being as cool as a Spartan Apple ][ Emulator for the C64?

I had forgotten all about that. Here's an old print ad for it:



EDIT: By the way, Mark, just noticed your signature. Nice of you to find us here! A question for you, if you don't mind: Any idea who owned the rights to INFO's IP after closing?

[Mangelore]

I had forgotten all about that. Here's an old print ad for it: http://oldcomputers.net/ads/wow/mimic-1.jpg

Wow, the Spartan from Mimic looks bigger in size than the C64!

[airship]

nikoniko, The Bank got everything. But they don't even know they have it by now, I'm sure; besides, it has no $$$ value, only historical. I know I don't have any qualms about posting stuff from INFO, and neither does Benn (Dunnington, the publisher), who has a gallery of most of the covers online.

I'm putting together some historical info as I go at http://airship.home.mchsi.com/infomag.htm but I'm sure I won't have time to scan in pages and post them until after I retire, which isn't for another 6 years at least!

[Guest]

Yes, but would it end up being as cool as a Spartan Apple ][ Emulator for the C64?

Did that thing actually work?  I would assume it didn't have Enhanced support and was closer to a 128k II+?

[nikoniko]

nikoniko, The Bank got everything. But they don't even know they have it by now, I'm sure; besides, it has no $$$ value, only historical. I know I don't have any qualms about posting stuff from INFO, and neither does Benn (Dunnington, the publisher), who has a gallery of most of the covers online.

I picked up a dozen issues of Gazette for scanning recently, and mixed in were two INFOs, which was my first proper introduction to your magazine. I certainly knew OF it, but the nearest stores here didn't have the greatest selection so unfortunately I missed it during its day. Since there might be a few others like me finding it for the first time, as well as many longtime fans who are missing it, I'd love to add INFO to my scanning project and work on getting them online, or pass the scans on to you to present them however you'd like. They seem to pop up on eBay from time to time, so I'll start grabbing the ones I find.

Cheers,
Michael

[airship]

As long as you understand that I can't give you 'official permission' to do anything with them. At all. Not even read them.
But I'd love to post the results when you have something. Web space I've got.

[Golan Klinger]

Did that thing actually work?  I would assume it didn't have Enhanced support and was closer to a 128k II+?

It worked just fine. It turned the 64 into a glorified video adaptor. It seems it was more popular up here in Canada than anywhere else.

[airship]

We actually gave the Spartan a pretty good review: ***+ stars.

It was an incredible kludge, and unreliable as all get-out. But it was a LOT of fun to tinker around with if you were into hacking either hardware or software.

The thing I remember most about it is that the 'Frankenstein' board you had to put into a 1541 to make it read Apple disks made it impossible to put the case back together. Now THAT'S a hacker design for you!

[Guest]

We actually gave the Spartan a pretty good review: ***+ stars.

It was an incredible kludge, and unreliable as all get-out. But it was a LOT of fun to tinker around with if you were into hacking either hardware or software.

The thing I remember most about it is that the 'Frankenstein' board you had to put into a 1541 to make it read Apple disks made it impossible to put the case back together. Now THAT'S a hacker design for you!

Hmm, that "Frankenstein board" could be a solution to a problem that many Apple II owners have today: Getting disk images to/from a PC without using a null modem cable.

[RobertB]

The thing I remember most about it is that the 'Frankenstein' board you had to put into a 1541 to make it read Apple disks made it impossible to put the case back together. Now THAT'S a hacker design for you!

Darn, when I got my Spartan, it didn't come with the board to put into the 1541 (or at least, I wasn't given the 1541 that had the board).

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[airship]

I can't remember for sure, but I think it was an extra-cost item.
I'm pretty sure they figured you already had an Apple drive if you were buying the Spartan.
Plus they had to keep costs down to something that at least SOUNDED reasonable.
But the doggone 1541 COULD read Apple disks with that board hacked in.
I"m pretty sure it was just a complete Apple controller clone that switched out the 1541 controller and took over.

[RobertB]

I can't remember for sure, but I think it was an extra-cost item.
I'm pretty sure they figured you already had an Apple drive if you were buying the Spartan.

Yeah... but an Apple drive hooked up to a C64-Spartan box wouldn't look right.  ;-)

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[airship]

Here's what I've come up with for a physical mockup:

Card:



Case:



With modern components, I think it would all fit. It includes an admittedly tight 3-slot expander. The power supply would be external to fit in this tight a space, and you'd need a pigtail to connect to the C128 power connector on the side. You could mount a small IDE hard drive somewhere on top of the left-hand side of the board (as seen from the front). I think all of the original ports need to be passed through, also, and in their original arrangement without new ports on the same 'line'. Of course, this will present a real estate problem.

Note the retro toggle switches on the front of the case. Not shown are the cool LED indicator lights for just about everything.

This would be a bear to plug in (as was the Spartan), but once you had it connected up there would be no need to remove it.

[airship]

Not to hog the thread, but if you needed more room you could use an 'overhang' design that slides over the back of the flat 128. What I like about this is that it puts the switches and MMC slot closer.



(Back panel remains the same.)

If you move the IDE hard drive a little to the right, you might even be able to get a 1581 clone squeezed in on the left, there (as shown). At the very least you could stack a real one on top.

Also added: front headphone jack, way TOO convenient reset switch, and front cartridge slot (for a total of 5).

I'm also thinking you need a way to connect a CD drive, since you've already got the IDE controller on board. But that's for someone else to figure out. I'm exhausted.

P.S. Where do I send my deposit to reserve one of these?

[Guest]

Wow, this looks amazing.  Now if I could just win the lottery...

[Guest]

BTW, I still think you'd want to fit a power supply inside the device, and since your concept wraps over the top of the 128 you'd want to provide a fan as well.

Another idea is to create a new case for the whole 128 that reuses the original 128 motherboard and keyboard but provides the space for all of these additions.  I think you'd wind up with something roughly the depth and height of an Amiga 500 and your built in 1581 could side load on the left.  I would also make it slightly wider at the back so that the pigtail for the power can be kept internal and locate the power and reset switches to somewhere more convenient.  I'd even create a spot on the case next to the power and reset for mounting other toggle switches for function ROMs like JiffyDOS and Servant.

[airship]

I thought about most of those things, Payton, and reached this particular compromise with myself mostly because:

(a) It's as small as it can get. Hence the external supply. I DO agree that I'd like it all built-in without a pigtail.
(b) The front-panel switches are meant to include those for function ROMs, etc., as you suggest.
(c) The new case thing was the first thing I thought of.* While that would be cool, too, I tried to stay true to the idea of the 'expansion chassis' here.
(d) I figured it might need a fan. But I couldn't squeeze one in. I'd have to move connectors around which, of course, can be done.
(e) I already moved the reset switch. Just too darned convenient. A new power switch is a good idea, though, and would be necessary anyway. D'oh!
     (Imagine one right next to the new reset switch position.)
(f) I've already wasted enough time at work on this today.

Here's how the design up there would look connected up:



*I actually think the whole 'new case' idea is better from a functional standpoint. But you'd want to try to stay true to the flat C128 look'n'feel.

[airship]

The solder pads are right in the upper right-hand corner of the main board for CN11 and CN12, the power connectors. If you soldered some header pins on those pads, you'd be set for an internal power connector.

Reminds me of my old Ohio Scientific Challenger C1P. It had the solder pads on the board for RS232, but they were unpopulated. My friend Dave dug around in his junk box for a couple of transistors, resistors, and capacitors, soldered them in, and in about 5 minutes with 25 cents worth of parts I had RS232.

Seems like the folks at Ohio Scientific stole more from Commodore than their computer designs. They stole CBM's management decision-making process as well!

[airship]

Last post. I PROMISE!

Potential board layouts: main board (mostly pass-thrus and pin headers), daughter board stacks right on top, cartridge port 'escalator', IDE and 1581 mounted forward in jog-back case design.



I'm tired. I'm off to bed, so some of you other guys will have a chance to post for awhile.

[airship]

I found this GREAT Apple ][ site called 'AppleFritter' which has a page on the Spartan Emulator! Here's a pic:



Note the arrangement for all the hookups, which would be similarly challenging for a C128 expansion chassis.

You can read all about it, complete with more pics, here:

http://www.applefritter.com/node/229

Hey, the lead software developer calls it 'Frankenstinian', too!

The second ad they show appeared several times in INFO, despite the fact that we were always going on about what a chunk of vaporware it was.

[Mangelore]

Even though my VIC-20 collection is limited, I managed to pickup this VIC-1010 expansion module yesterday in great condition.



I wonder why there was never anything similar for the C64 or 128?