Internet Access on a newly purchased C128

[va3saj]

Hello everyone:

  I just recently acquired a commodore 128, after having looked a long time for one.  I was intrigued at the idea of owning a piece of computing history, being able to run so many classic games from the 80s, and being able to run the ancient DOS ancestor CP/M on the same machine.  Yes I know you can emulate all this in VICE and such on a modern machine, but it doesn't feel nearly as satisfying as actually firing up an authentic box and doing the thing in the real world.

  Anyway, I got it up and running, figured out how to chain extra disk drives to it, and I got an old tape drive to work with it too.  I didnt expect all the old VIC-20 tapes to run without any hassles (I thought they were too old), but they loaded and ran fine.  Remarkable.

  Yet I wonder...is anyone still writing NEW software for the 128?  What I had in mind was a TCP/IP stack, dialer, maybe an ethernet...I've seen the ethernet hardware cartridges, and might try one out.  It would be very interesting to get an 8 bit machine on the net, maybe with Contiki or something.

  But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried to write a DOS emulator for the Commodore.  Rather like WINE in Linux, it would allow you to run Windows programs in Linux (with the appropriate apis).  So a C128 could run certain DOS programs, then.  I had in mind maybe arachne for DOS (a DOS based Internet browser), or lynx/bobact, some other 8-bit web browser.  That way, you could get on the net with a C128 using easily available, off the shelf DOS programs (which are quite commonplace, and universally available).  I suppose you'd need a 512 MB expansion card for this, but they don't seem to be too hard to find.  Plus Id like to run some DOS-based ham radio programs (I cant imagine there a Commodore version of these).  Is this possible, or are the hardware restrictions on the C128 too limiting?  I'd be curious to know peoples' thoughts on this.  How easy is it to emulate DOS sessions on a C128?

  Also:  it looks like, from my limited experience with the C128, that daisy chaining peripherals is pretty easy, disk drive to disk drive, and so on.  I'm guessing this is pretty similar to the SCSI devices I use on my old Windows 3.11 box.  Is it easy to add peripherals like Hard Drives, CD-ROMS, etc., or is this a major hassle?  I think that would be the next obvious thing I should like to try, but if its a major difficulty, I might just get a cable and hook it up to a PC and use that HD/CD instead (there seem to be several outfits offering this).

  Thanks very much.  I'm pleased there is a community keeping these old machines alive.

Julian, va3saj


 

[nikoniko]

Welcome to the forums, Julian, and congratulations on becoming a 128 owner! It's never too late to get started with the world's best 8-bit machine.

Hardware-wise, I think the best option for internet access from the 128 is the FB-Net, created by our very own forum member Fotios (username: Mangelore). It's register-compatible with the RR-Net, which has been pretty much become the standard for Commodore 8-bit ethernet, and also features TFE (The Final Ethernet) compatibility.

The only problem is there's very little software to deal with ethernet from 128 mode, not that there's really much for 64 mode either. There's Contiki, as you mentioned, which has some 128 support. Fotios and I are testing and debugging a 128 port of Netmon v0.3, a tool which allows a degree of remote access to a C128 from a PC, as well as facilitating file transfers back and forth. You'll be able to download it here very soon. And I've been working on a networked OS of my own called SLOPe, which you can read about in one of the subforums here, that will allow some interesting possibilities. My progress moves along in fits and spurts, though, so get ready for a long wait if it's something you're interested in. Molasses moves faster than I do.

There's also a text-mode web browser for both the 64 and 128, the Singular Browser.

As far as DOS on a 128 goes, I suppose it could be done to some degree on a 20Mhz SuperCPU 128 if someone wrote an emulator, but I doubt it would be pleasant to use. I "ran" a software DOS emulator on an Amiga 500 once, a machine which as you know is a number of times faster than a 128, and DOS was only just barely tolerable. There were hardware PC boards you could attach to Amigas, though, which made a nicer experience of DOS since they provided a real processor.

If you like the Edit program which came with later versions of DOS, check out the 128 Programmers subforum, where the ambitious xlar54 is keeping us updated on his new look-alike text editor for C128.

More reasonable than emulation would be telnetting into a PC and doing some sort of remote control. Running Lynx/Bobcat over a telnet session ought to be pretty usable. SLOPe uses the idea of having a proxy server running on a PC to translate web pages and other documents to a more manageable form before transmitting to the 128. Generally I feel a 2Mhz machine ought not to be overly burdened with having to process today's heavy web pages all by itself. It's okay to let a PC help out a bit.

Anyway, this is a great time to be getting into the 128, since it's finally getting some of the modern development attention it deserves. I know some people here can help you get started with 64HDD, which will let you use hard drives and CDs on a PC from your 128. As far as I know, all you need is an XE1541 cable, a PC running DOS, and the 64HDD software (which runs on the PC side).

Regarding daisy chaining, keep your eyes open for a port of Microchess designed to be played between the CPUs of multiple 1541 drives chained together. It's being written by former INFO editor, Mark R. Brown, another of our regulars here.

[airship]

Great. Pressure. I've stalled on the 1541s playing chess thing, though it's by no means dead. I still hope to get it done 'someday', by which I mean 'before the sun burns out'.

[xlar54]

Well, theres a few ways at looking at the problem you are wanting to solve.  Consider something like this:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6828123924.html

This is a *very* small, but fully functional PC.  Not much bigger than your hand.  I think if you consider a PC this small as a peripheral that can be attached to the 128 and to an ethernet network....  Then you only need to fill in the blanks (software).  At a much larger scale (a bigger PC), I wrote an IRC client for the 128.  Basically it just talks to the PC via the userport (null cable). The PC does all of the communication, the client just interprets the data coming in and sets the display. 

So it depends on what you are wanting to do.  Does the 128 need a TCP stack?  I personally dont think its necessary, and would be slow anyway. But again, if you consider a tiny PC as just a new nifty programmable peripheral for the 128, there's alot of interesting things you can do.

[va3saj]

Hello everyone:

  Thanks for all the very helpful replies.  Mike your detailed post has given me a lot to look up....I will examine Singular, and the Telnet/PC connection, it does seem quite promising.  Airship I can't speak for the others, but no pressure from me, I didn't even know the project was on LOL.  Xlar I agree your solution is very elegant...but is it really a Commodore doing the work, or a PC?  I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to that.  I can't explain it, but hooking up to a PC (even as a "peripheral") doesn't feel right.  I wonder if anyone feels like this...like, you can easily run an emulator on a dual core Windows box...but its not the same as doing it on the real hardware.  I may be too much of a purist, maybe...as I agree that being able to cable the Commodore and a PC (so you could use its hard drive and CD-ROM, etc), seems a beautiful way to solve several problems at once.  It is wonderfully elegant...but is it really a Commodore LOL?

  I cannot express my gratitude for all the work you folks are doing here on the webpage, particularly the administrators and regular posters.  Computer operating systems (and the software that runs on them) are part of the cultural heritage of modern civilization...and a increasingly important part, I might add.  Admittedly, many only used these machines to play games, but how many essays, documents, letters, archives, records, spreadsheets, and god knows what else were written on this OS and are now at risk of being lost forever, simply because so few remember how to use/program the old machines?  The C128 I got came with a couple hundred diskettes that would otherwise have been thrown out....which I've only just begun to examine.  Thousands of hours of programming, writing, editing, by a galaxy of software authors, both professional and amateur, which have slumbered in a forgotten box for over 20 years.

  The Commodore series of microcomputers had, I believe, an enormous impact on the early history of computing...it is, to my mind, a shame that virtually nobody knows how to use these computers, and programs/documents written on them are (in the main) unreadable on most modern computers.  It is as if you were a custodian of a huge archive of medieval manuscripts, but then you find out that none of the scholars today can read any Latin.  That shouldn't happen.

  I'm now trying to get the printer working (an MPS1000).  Yes I guess I could probably send everything to a a PC and print through the PCs USB ports to a modern Epson or HP, but again, it doesn't feel authentic....LOL.  So I'll try to figure out how that darned Xetec Super Graphics parallel port dongle works.  Thanks again to everyone for your help.

Julian, VA3SAJ

[airship]

As for using a PC as a peripheral for my C128 - I consider that to be the BEST use for a PC!

Seriously, you could buy hard drives for the C128 back in the day, but finding one of them today is nearly impossible, and even if you do they cost hundreds of dollars and are 25 years old. But for $50 in hardware and $0 in software (64HDD), I've got a DOS box acting as a file server for my C128. To me, it's no different than having a Lt. Kernal or CMD hard drive hooked up. My C128 sees it as a set of floppy drives, so there's no change to my system setup, how it looks, or how it works. What could be more natural?

The newer solutions all involve chips and/or technologies that didn't exist back in the day, so they seem more like 'cheating' to me than simply using a DOS box (which DID exist back then) with a cable and software that COULD have existed back then.

[nikoniko]

Nothing wrong with a little networked "cheating". For decades people have been using connections to more powerful systems to augment the capabilities of humbler systems. And in some cases, many lesser systems networked together can effectively act as a more powerful system (eg. Google).

[airship]

Speaking of which, is there any news yet of any progress on the Commodore 64 Parallel Supercomputer Project?

[nikoniko]

I wondered what happened with that. Didn't FCUG donate some machines to the effort?

Maybe Robert Bernardo can fill us in...

[RobertB]

Didn't FCUG donate some machines to the effort?

16 C64s and 8 monitors.

Maybe Robert Bernardo can fill us in...

From: "Sellam Ismail"
Date:  Thu, December 20, 2007 11:23 pm
To:     "Jim Brain"
Cc:     rbernardo@iglou.com
"James m"

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, Jim Brain wrote:

> Sellam Ismail wrote:

> > Hi James and Jim and Robert.
> >
> > It is too late to revive the project in time for the VCF this weekend,
> > but I would definitely like to move forward with it and am thinking about
> > presenting this at an as yet completely preliminary idea for a vintage
> > computer music event sometime next year.
> >
> >
> Ping.

Sorry, my network connection is slow so this ping reply took a while

I am all for continuing this project for the next main event (or an event
in and of itself) but I need a little more time to get a couple other
local and more pressing projects up to speed and then I can return my
attention to the C64 supercomputer.

In the meantime, have a great holiday and new year, and I'll probably get
back in touch with everyone (and respond to previously sent e-mails)
probably by the middle of January.

[Andrew Wiskow]

In the meantime, have a great holiday and new year, and I'll probably get
back in touch with everyone (and respond to previously sent e-mails)
probably by the middle of January.

Hey... Tomorrow is the middle of January! 

-Andrew

[airship]

Makes me feel better about my long-delayed Multi-1541 Disk Drive Chess Engine.

[hannenz]

Fotios and I are testing and debugging a 128 port of Netmon v0.3, a tool which allows a degree of remote access to a C128 from a PC, as well as facilitating file transfers back and forth. You'll be able to download it here very soon.

hey ho!
this is my tool! nice to see someone porting it to 128, i am very excited! would've been nice if you'd dropped me an info that you are working on this! now that i am in c128 coding as well maybe i can help you guys out! how far is the progress wight now?!
if you have any problems feel free to contact me (h.a.n.n.e.n.z.[at]f.r.e.e.n.e.t.[dot].d.e)

[nikoniko]

Sorry about that. I planned to send you a copy once it's finished.

Basic functions work okay, but I need to fix some issues with directory display and also add support for viewing and disassembling from the 128's extra memory. If I'd known you were going to get yourself a 128, though, I would've waited and let you port it yourself. I'll get in touch with you by email and send you what's done so far.

By the way, thanks very much for writing Netmon. Personally I think it's one of the most useful tools ever created for the 64, and it'll be nice to also use it on the 128.

[hannenz]

alright. no problem.
i am glad that you like netmon and would be even more glad to have a running c128 port of it...! I don't have to port it myself indeed but on the other side it's good to know there are people doing the same - so maybe wee could join forces in some way. Well, please send me what you have got so far so i can have  a loko at it.
and btw: i hope this proves what i am still not sure about: The RR-Net DOES work properly on native c128 mode ??! yes?!

[smf]

I suppose you'd need a 512 MB expansion card for this, but they don't seem to be too hard to find.  Plus Id like to run some DOS-based ham radio programs (I cant imagine there a Commodore version of these).  Is this possible, or are the hardware restrictions on the C128 too limiting?  I'd be curious to know peoples' thoughts on this.  How easy is it to emulate DOS sessions on a C128?

Easy isn't the question you want to ask, practical is.
You could probably emulate an 8088 and boot an ancient version of DOS.
It would be really slow though.

Extra ram wouldn't be worthwhile as the REU uses DMA, which is largely useless for anything other than a RAM disk.

[nikoniko]

and btw: i hope this proves what i am still not sure about: The RR-Net DOES work properly on native c128 mode ??! yes?!

Yes it does. Although people have said for a while that it "should" work in 128 mode, I think Fotios may have been the first to actually try it and find out for sure that it does.

[StyleCHM]

I believe there are more HAM based programs for the 64 than for DOS..... Most people in the 80s used a 64 for packet radio I hear.

[airship]

There's a book called Commodore 64 and 128 Programmes for Amateur Radio and Electronics that you might want to look at. There's also The Commodore Ham's Companion.

And I know there were interfaces and programs for HAM, shortwave, code, etc.

If nothing else, you can always get some Commodore ham here.

[hannenz]

@Michael Hart: Did you send me anything in the meantime? maybe my junk filter ate it up?! i'd be very curious about seeing how far you are with the netmon port.