Ethernet over IEC?

[gsteemso]

Hiya!

Was lusting after various Ethernet adaptors for C64s when I suddenly realized there weren't any for other CBM machines, at least not that I can find.

Making one for a PET shouldn't be that hard IMO, as the IEEE-488 bus is very fast, though I'm unsure how well the CPU could keep up.

The Vic-20, C128, Plus/4, etc. are a little more problematic. If the C64 can keep up with Ethernet I'm sure the others could as well, but developing a new cartridge for each type of machine (and then having to tweak it so it worked with slightly unusual models like the SX-64 or the Commodore LCD) would be ridiculous. If we had something that hooked up via the IEC bus, that would be about as compatible as I can imagine, though it would probably need JiffyDOS or similar to work at all well. (Do the Plus/4 and its brethren even work with IEC? ISTR they came with a different disk drive -- the 1551 or some such. Anyone remember why?)

Another alternative is to dangle something off the tape port, but not all machines came with one and we'd be back to the problem of needing custom Kernal drivers for every Commodore platform. Not really practical IMO.

An IEC-based Ethernet adapter would appear to a stock system as indistinguishable from any other serial device, though it wouldn't be much use without some sort of fastloader. I'd propose JiffyDOS for that as it's already implemented for everything, and offers numerous fringe benefits, such as a wide preinstalled base. (Maurice Randall is not one of those benefits, but happily, alternatives to his fraud service now exist.)

Software to access the device is more problematic, but then, since current devices all run only on the C64 (and would probably offer superior performance on that platform), any implementation would be starting from scratch anyway (stuff written for a C64 functions poorly or not at all on the other platforms I listed above). From that perspective, the proposal sounds quite reasonable to me.

Reactions, please?

[airship]

IEC is only used on the VIC, 64, and 128.

I'm guessing you'd have to create a small, stand-alone dedicated computer. It would accept communication requests from the C64/VIC,  translate and send them out over Ethernet, buffer the results, and spoon-feed them back to the C64/VIC. Not a bad idea, really.

But you can have the same thing with any of the cartridge-port Ethernet adapters that Fotios and others have built, like the RRNet. Since they can communicate in parallel instead of serial, especially at IEC speeds, the only argument for one that I can see is 'because it hasn't been done yet'.

Now that I think about it, you could probably use one of their designs, only substitute an IEC port for the parallel connection. You wouldn't need a ROM for the 64, just a new set of IEC commands that your box understood. Kind of interesting.

[Golan Klinger]

Why not the user port?

[airship]

Why not the user port?

Why not? You could have the little computer receiving commands sent using a regular terminal program, lynx, etc. Even Contiki.

[gsteemso]

Why not the user port?

Why not? You could have the little computer receiving commands sent using a regular terminal program, lynx, etc. Even Contiki.

While this is true, it does not meet the need I see (Ethernet on non-64 Commies). Don't they all have incompatible user ports? You'd be back to needing a different piece of hardware for every type of Commodore.

IEC is only used on the VIC, 64, and 128.

What do the Plus/4, C116, etc. use instead?

I'm guessing you'd have to create a small, stand-alone dedicated computer. It would accept communication requests from the C64/VIC,  translate and send them out over Ethernet, buffer the results, and spoon-feed them back to the C64/VIC. Not a bad idea, really.

That's essentially how all such devices work regardless of interface, isn't it?

But you can have the same thing with any of the cartridge-port Ethernet adapters that Fotios and others have built, like the RRNet. Since they can communicate in parallel instead of serial, especially at IEC speeds, the only argument for one that I can see is 'because it hasn't been done yet'.

If you are focussed only on the 64 you are quite correct -- there would be no benefit. However, Commodore made a lot of other machines too. Why should they all be denied Ethernet access? Most relevant to this forum is that current offerings only work on a 128 in 64 mode. I call foul.

Now that I think about it, you could probably use one of their designs, only substitute an IEC port for the parallel connection. You wouldn't need a ROM for the 64, just a new set of IEC commands that your box understood. Kind of interesting.

Oh yes, that's the compatibility advantage. However it would be slower than dirt. Hence the JiffyDOS, which is really the only viable fastloader since it already exists for all of the affected platforms. I think. How many are there in the series that included the Plus/4 and all those obscure sequels to it? Do they have any interfaces in common? I think there would have to be three versions of any device that catered to ALL commodore machines: IEEE-488 for PET/CBM or B-series; JiffyDOS'd IEC for VIC-20, 64 and 128; and whatever would work for the "obscure stepchildren", as we may as well call them.

[RobertB]

Do the Plus/4 and its brethren even work with IEC?

Yes, the Plus/4 and the C16 have an IEC serial port.  In fact, there is NTSC and PAL JiffyDOS for the Plus/4 floating around.

...they came with a different disk drive -- the 1551 or some such. Anyone remember why?

Only the Plus/4 came with the specialized, parallel port for the 1551 drive.  With such a port and the 1551, the user could get 4 times faster reading and writing onto disks.

            Back in California,
            Robert Bernardo
            Fresno Commodore User Group
            http://videocam.net.au/fcug
            The Other Group of Amigoids
            http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[RobertB]

What do the Plus/4, C116, etc. use instead?

Oops, I forgot to mention that the C116 has an IEC serial port, too.

             Back in California,
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug
             The Other Group of Amigoids
             http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[airship]

My bad, now that I actually look. 

I had my hands on an actual +4 for about five minutes, and just assumed the 1551 was it. It had C64-incompatible joystick and cassette ports, so I assumed the disk drive setup was the same kind of thing.

[Golan Klinger]

Why not the user port?

Why not?

The question was largely rhetorical. I have ethernet via the user port (as do many others) and it works just fine and since the user port is near to ubiquitous, I didn't see the point in reinventing the wheel. I did have a good laugh about gsteemso's suggestion about using JiffyDOS. That was priceless.

[RobertB]

The Vic-20, C128, Plus/4, etc. are a little more problematic.

There has been a little bit of discussion about VIC-20 Contiki and a VIC-20 Ethernet cart at the forums at Denial VIC-20. Just click on Search and put in the word, Ethernet or Contiki.

          Truly,
          Robert Bernardo
          Fresno Commodore User Group
          http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[gsteemso]

I have ethernet via the user port (as do many others) and it works just fine and since the user port is near to ubiquitous, I didn't see the point in reinventing the wheel.

It is? I thought the user port was wired differently for each model of Commodore. My bad.

If this is true it puts a whole new spin on things. There'd be no change on the software side, apart from not needing a firmware update unless you wanted to replace Kernal RS-232 support with Kernal Ethernet support; but being able to run the same hardware attached to any kind of Commodore 8-bit ever produced would be enormously valuable.

You said many people have these adapters. How many models exist? Are they software-compatible with one another? If not, is any one model more common than the others? Can any such device still be purchased from anywhere? I'd love to get my 128 online in 128 mode!

[Golan Klinger]

It is?

Yep.

If this is true it puts a whole new spin on things. There'd be no change on the software side, apart from not needing a firmware update unless you wanted to replace Kernal RS-232 support with Kernal Ethernet support; but being able to run the same hardware attached to any kind of Commodore 8-bit ever produced would be enormously valuable.

There's no need to change anything. The kernal talks to the user port and what's on the other side of the user port has nothing to do with the kernal.

The easiest thing to do is connect a user port RS-232 interface and then use a serial to ethernet converter, called a terminal server. The most commonly used device is the Lantronix UDS-10. You feed serial in one end and you get ethernet out the other (and vice versa). If you really want to get fancy you can use an embedded RS-232 to ethernet device (like the Lantronix Xport and integrate it directly with an RS-232 interface.

Quite a few people are using such setups to run telnet bulletin boards and/or to connect to them.

[RobertB]

I thought the user port was wired differently for each model of Commodore.

The Commodore 16 and 116 have no user ports.  The PET 2001/4032/8032 computers have user ports but are differently wired when compared to those on the Commodore VIC-20/C64/C128/Plus4.

You said many people have these adapters. How many models exist? Are they software-compatible with one another?

Go to http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html for a summary of Ethernet devices and programs (though it's not fully up-to-date with all the new devices coming out).

If not, is any one model more common than the others?

RR-Net combined with MMC Replay (older version was the Retro Replay) is the more common though expensive solution.  More cost-effective would be Fotios' FB-NET or the 1541 Ultimate with Ethernet option or the upcoming Super Snapshot v6 or the upcoming IDE64 with ETH64.

Can any such device still be purchased from anywhere?

Yes, the RR-Net/MMC Replay combination, the Fotios' FB-NET, and the 1541 Ultimate with Ethernet option are available.

I'd love to get my 128 online in 128 mode!

:-)  I already do, with a modem, term program (I use Desterm 2.01), and an ISP with shell account.

                Truly,
                Robert Bernardo
                Fresno Commodore User Group
                http://videocam.net.au/fcug
                The Other Group of Amigoids
                http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[Golan Klinger]

You said many people have these adapters. How many models exist? Are they software-compatible with one another?

Go to http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html for a summary of Ethernet devices and programs (though it's not fully up-to-date with all the new devices coming out).

We are talking about methods of networking Commodore computers via the user port. Every device on Leif's list plugs into the expansion port. Do try to follow along.

[airship]

Golan... 

[RobertB]

     There has been a little bit of discussion about VIC-20 Contiki and a VIC-20 Ethernet cart at the forums at Denial VIC-20.

There has been a miniscule amount of discussion about Ethernet on the Commodore Plus4 at http://plus4.emucamp.com/search   Just put Ethernet into the blank and search for the forum links.

          That site was down yesterday,
          Robert Bernardo
          Fresno Commodore User Group
          http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[gsteemso]

Golan... 

What about his post was incorrect? Yes it was rude, but I was about to say substantially the same thing myself, if perhaps more circumspectly phrased. I already know about the various cartridge port Ethernet solutions... the fact that none of them work unless the machine in question is a C64 or 128 in 64 mode was the whole reason I started this thread.

[Golan Klinger]

Some people's tolerance levels for my directness is almost as low as my tolerance for stupidity.

To keep this on-topic I'll tell you that I know of several people currently working on developing 'ether-modems' (okay, that's my pet name) which are RS-232 interfaces integrated with serial to ethernet adaptors. Expect at least one such device to be commonly available in 2009. Plug it in and run your favourite terminal software and it will look and act just like a modem.

[hydrophilic]

I think gsteemso's idea has merit.  With RS-232 you generally need special software.  With IEC, I'm thinking you could use the standard KERNAL routines to read and write.  Thus it could potentialy be used with existing software.

What I'm not sure is how information would be transcieved.  Would the IEC be a 'dumb' device sending packets to a fro, or it would it be 'smart' and support TCP/IP and URLs ?  If it only sends packets of info, you would need some special software and might as well stick with the user port.

I think it could be cool and useful if it were 'smart'.  For example,

LOAD"http://mypc/mydata.seq",8

or

SAVE"192.168.64.1/mygame.prg",8

or better if you could assign an alias, like drive 0 = 192.168.64.1.  Then the above could be entered as

SAVE"0:mygame.prg",8

OK, enough dreaming.

[gsteemso]

I think gsteemso's idea has merit.  With RS-232 you generally need special software.  With IEC, I'm thinking you could use the standard KERNAL routines to read and write.  Thus it could potentialy be used with existing software.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Compatibility of that sort was the driving idea, yes.

What I'm not sure is how information would be transcieved.  Would the IEC be a 'dumb' device sending packets to a fro, or it would it be 'smart' and support TCP/IP and URLs ?  If it only sends packets of info, you would need some special software and might as well stick with the user port.

I've been thinking hard about this. What you want is something that can accept commands at all levels of the Ethernet and IP protocol stacks.

This means that at the top level it could acquire a disk image from the internet and thenceforth act as a disk drive, at intermediate levels it would expose the IP and TCP/UDP controls so a savvy program could use e-mail, the Web or IRC (for example), and at the lowest level it would let you set the Ethernet packet type so as to enable other protocols like Novell Netware (? I think that's what it was called, I never tried it) or EtherTalk (AppleTalk over Ethernet).

OK, enough dreaming.

Hah! Don't be silly. Always dream! It's how we get cool stuff!

[RobertB]

Always dream! It's how we get cool stuff!

  If you could get your device working and manufactured, you will have opened up a whole world of Ethernet dreams for those using other CBM platforms.

          Truly,
          Robert Bernardo
          Fresno Commodore User Group
          http://videocam.net.au/fcug
          The Other Group of Amigoids
          http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[gsteemso]

I've been conversing with Jim Brain about how I should implement this over at forums.petscii.com . Stay tuned for, hopefully, not very long before I get somewhere.

[brain]

I've been conversing with Jim Brain about how I should implement this over at forums.petscii.com . Stay tuned for, hopefully, not very long before I get somewhere.

Just a note.  It's tough to follow these multi-forum discussions in so many places.  I have provided some information over at the PETSCII forum for those who want to know more.

Jim