Where should a C128 newbie begin?

[Huxley]

Hi guys!

A few weeks ago, I picked up a complete Commodore 64 collection. The batch was given to me by the original owners, who simply needed to clear some room in their garage. The lot included a pair of "breadbox" 64's (one with a better keyboard than the other), a 1702 monitor, 2 disk drives (one original style, and one later "slim" model), and two file boxes of extra stuff. One box contains a ton of books relating to the C64 and 128 - manuals, programmers references, field-repair guides, and even a hand-bound issue of "Cracker Jax," a 'zine dedicated to breaking C64 copy protection. Also, that box contains approximately 25-35 issues of "Compute's Gazette" magazine. Awesome reading!

The other box was loaded with software and carts. I got two Epyx FastLoad carts, a "Final Cartridge III," and a cart of Jeff Minter's "Gridrunner." There are also about 50 loose floppies, mostly the disks that came with magazines like those Compute's, as well as about half-a-dozen other "magazine"-style disks. Finally, there are about 10-12 boxed games, including several Infocom games (love the "feelies!"), Skyfox (in the cool "album" case), a bunch of SSI strategy games, and more.

Awesome haul, and a great way to really jump-start my Commodore collection! I already had a 1702 screen, a C64 (in the later "128"-style case) and a 128 (with a newly-acquired power brick), but now I've got all the cables, accessories and software I need to really dive in.

I've had a lot of fun playing with the C64, but now that I've got the AC brick (and video cable) for the 128, I'm going to hook that up to my 1702 screen and fire it up (after a deep-cleaning - years of grime on this thing!).  I played with 64's a lot as a kid, and later had an Amiga 500 and 1000, but this is my first experience with a 128.  In anticipation of getting her running, I bought (and just received today) a "Servant 128" chip, which I'll install right away.

I guess my main question is where to start!  I've got a fair batch of games for the 64-mode, but at the moment, I have no software that will take advantage of the upgraded 128 capabilities.  Where should I start with software?  I'm comfortable scrounging around on eBay (or working out trades here!), but this is a whole new world to me, and some "newbie-friendly" advice would be great.

Thanks!

Huxley

[hydrophilic]

Welcome!

I guess it depends on what you want to do with it.  There weren't many games for the C128.  Mostly home office type applications.  When I wasn't playing games back in the day, I was either programming or writing for school on the thing.

For programming, the C128 has a great built-in BASIC.  It also has decent machine language monitor useful for a beginner.  More advanced ML would require an assembler.  Buddy and Merlin128 come to mind.  For BASIC there is an enhanced version called BASIC 8 and there are few compilers available.  Right now I can only think of Blitz128.

There are lots of word processor and spread sheet programs available.  I can't recommend any.  I used GEOS 2.0 and GeoPublish for producing reports with pictures and charts for science classes (worked for English class too but was overkill).  If this is your thing there's a new version called Wheels but I don't really know much about it.

Some people like running BBSes with their 128.  I can't recommend any software here either, but you'll want to beef up your hardware if that's your goal.

A lot of fun for me today (besides cross assembly programming) is with hardware.  Of course the #1 hardware item (besides a disk drive which you have), would be a RAM expansion unit.  Commodore made the 1700 and 1750 REUs for the 128 and I hear their 1764 will also work.  I think there are some clones that function like the Commodore REUs, but be careful because some like GEO RAM don't offer the DMA abilities of the Commodore models.  An REU can make the difference in software go from "interesting" to "fanstastic".  Of course not all software needs or supports RAM expansion.

Besides that, you'll proably want an 80-column display since most software is 80-column only.  You can build your own cable in a few minutes that hooks to your 1702 but it will be monochrome only (of course you can buy them too).  For a full-color display you'd need a monitor that supports RGBI or one of several adapters.  Checkout the hardware section for the possibilities.

Another popular thing to do is connect the Commodore with modern computers.  You could use Ethernet with a cartridge -- or with the serial bus and special software that runs on your PC (and naturally a special cable to connect the two).  With Ethernet, you could then use software for viewing web pages; I think the popular app for that is Contiki.  With the serial cable you can access disk drives and network shares on your PC.

Like I said, it really depends on what you want to do.  For example, somebody  around here has a collection of disk drives being to work on chess games!

[Blacklord]

You forgot CP/M ....   which I happen to like

[Huxley]

Wow, thanks for the awesome and informative post!

I guess I'm not sure exactly what I'd like to do with this thing.  My primary focus for my "retrocomputing" hobby has always been gaming, but as you say, this was the weak spot for the 128 (though I'm sure there were at least a few games that pushed this hardware!).  I really like your idea of beefing up the hardware - this has always fascinated me, and my first inclination when I get any retro machine up-and-running is to look for any upgrades or add-ons (hence the purchase of the Servant chip before I even have the 128 set up!).  I'll be on the lookout for an REU, so if anyone reading this has a spare, drop me a line!

As for connecting to a more modern computer, I'm very interested in doing so.  My last major retro project was getting my Apple IIGS talking to my new MacBook Pro via a serial-to-USB adapter - I wonder if there is any hope of using that same adapter with the 128?  After I figured out the various cable-convertors, the rest of that project was dead simple, thanks to the amazing ADTPro software.  I'll do some digging, but does anyone here have much experience connecting Commodore gear (be it 64 or 128) to a modern Mac?

Anyway, thanks again for the great info - I really appreciate it!

Huxley

[Golan Klinger]

My last major retro project was getting my Apple IIGS talking to my new MacBook Pro via a serial-to-USB adapter - I wonder if there is any hope of using that same adapter with the 128?

Unfortunately the 128 doesn't have an RS-232 port. If you get a user port RS-232 adaptor you should be good to go. It works just fine with a Belkin serial to USB adaptor.

I'll do some digging, but does anyone here have much experience connecting Commodore gear (be it 64 or 128) to a modern Mac?

I guess I do although there isn't a ton of experience to be had. Did you have any specific questions?

[airship]

Unfortunately the 128 doesn't have an RS-232 port. If you get a user port RS-232 adaptor you should be good to go. It works just fine with a Belkin serial to USB adaptor.

Golan, would a user port RS232 be enough or would you need a cartridge port RS232 to do USB?

[Huxley]

Hi guys,

I've just updated my blog with some quick info on my 128-restoration project, the link is below (no spam or ads, just retrocomputing geekdom!):

http://web.mac.com/huckdunsany/Homepage/Retro_Obsession_Blog/Retro_Obsession_Blog.html

Otherwise, I'm making good progress.  I've gotten the 128 torn down, cleaned up and put back together (along with that Servant 128 chip).  I just powered her up for the first time, and the POWER LED came on bright and strong, but I'm not getting any image on my 1702 monitor.  I'm using the same cable that I've been using with my C64 (round DIN-style connector on one end, Audio, Chroma and Luma on the other end), but the screen plays dumb when the 128 is connected.  I've tried powering it up with the C= key held down, as well as with the 40/80 button up and down, but no response.

Am I barking up the wrong tree with this cable or screen, or is my 128 wounded?  Any clarification would be great!

Thanks,

Huxley

[RobertB]

I'm using the same cable that I've been using with my C64 (round DIN-style connector on one end, Audio, Chroma and Luma on the other end)...

You need to tap the 80-column signal off the RGB port and route it over to the composite video (front port) of your 1702.  Then you'll see an 80-column monochrome screen on the 1702 when the 40/80 switch is down on the C128.

My last major retro project was getting my Apple IIGS talking to my new MacBook Pro via a serial-to-USB adapter - I wonder if there is any hope of using that same adapter with the 128?

I'd be interested if you got your Apple IIGS talking to the C128.

         Truly,
         Robert Bernardo
         Fresno Commodore User Group
         http://videocam.net.au/fcug
         The Other Group of Amigoids
         http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[Huxley]

Thanks for the info!  I have very little experience with cable-building - do you know of any detailed instructions on how I would go about this, or do you think it would be easier to just buy a pre-made cable (or for that matter, a more compatible monitor!)?

Thanks again for the info - this is turning into quite a fun project!

Huxley

[RobertB]

I have very little experience with cable-building - do you know of any detailed instructions on how I would go about this...

You tap the composite signal off the pin #7 (looking at the computer, bottom row, second from the right).  You'd need a D-SUB male connector, a shielded cable, and an RCA male connector.

...or do you think it would be easier to just buy a pre-made cable...

That's possible.

...(or for that matter, a more compatible monitor!)?

Well, that's possible, too, if you want to spend the money for it and an 80-column RGB-I cable.

               Truly,
               Robert Bernardo
               Fresno Commodore User Group
               http://videocam.net.au/fcug
               The Other Group of Amigoids
               http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[hydrophilic]

I hate to say this, and hopefully I just misunderstand, but it sounds like your C128 has a serious problem!  There are 2 video connectors on the back.  A DIN connector and a D-Sub connector.  The DIN connector should work fine for displaying 40-column mode on your 1702.  You should get a display no matter the position of the 40/80 key (if the key is down, you won't get the start-up text but you'll still get a green border).

For 80-column display you connect to the D-Sub connector on the back.  You can get a cable(s) on eBay that connect to this and output to an RCA plug (for use with a 1702 type monitor or video-in of TV) and/or output to S-Video cable (for TV with S-Video).  In either case, these simple cables only provide monochrome.  Or you can build your own as stated above.

For an RGBI monitor I can only recommend the Commodore 1902.  I think the Commodore 1084 will also work.  These monitors allow you to switch between 40 column (analog) and 80 column (digital) modes.

Another approach is to get a converter to VGA monitor, or if you have a TV you could get an S-Video converter.  These converter options are more expensive but there's no telling how long the old Commodore monitors will function plus shipping of monitors is expensive.  The drawback to the converters is the ones I've seem do RGB not RBGI conversion which means without modificiation you'll only get 8 of the 16 colors.  Another drawback is you'll need some type of switch or two seperate monitors.  Some might consider 2 monitors a benefit but I don't know of any major software title that uses two monitors simultaneously.

[airship]

I don't know of any major software title that uses two monitors simultaneously.

So who is finally going to volunteer to write one?

I'm thinking a text adventure with graphic screens.

But a word processor with 'embedded' graphics displayed on the 40-column screen would be cool, too.

Hey! The same engine could probably be used for both!

[Huxley]

Huh.  I wonder if that "Servant 128" chip that I installed could be effecting the system in such a way that it either doesn't work at all, or is booting in such a way that it will not play nice with the 1702 monitor.  One (small) indication that I have that it's at least partially working is that the two disk drives I have daisy-chained into the 128 (a 1541 and 1571) both make their normal "system boot" whirs and clicks each time I power on or reset the 128.  I'm not familiar enough with the 128 to know for sure - is this a sign that the machine is working, or simply the drives reacting to current flowing through?  Additionally, when I have the DIN connector plugged from the rear of the 128 into the rear of the 1702 screen, even though I'm not getting a picture, I do get a small flicker whenever I power on or reset the system.  Possible signs of life?

I'm already late for work, so I'll try again tonight.  At this point I'm thinking that I should take 'er apart again and possibly remove the Servant chip.  I'm feeling pretty dumb for installing a ROM upgrade without ever powering on the system first.  Oh well, live and learn, right?!

Huxley

[Golan Klinger]

OT Request: As a courtesy to others please remember to trim unnecessary quotes. If you don't need any quotes in your post then use the "REPLY" tab at the bottom of the thread rather than the inline "Quote" function. Thanks.

[RobertB]

One (small) indication that I have that it's at least partially working is that the two disk drives I have daisy-chained into the 128 (a 1541 and 1571) both make their normal "system boot" whirs and clicks each time I power on or reset the 128.  I'm not familiar enough with the 128 to know for sure - is this a sign that the machine is working, or simply the drives reacting to current flowing through?

Yes, that is a sign that the C128 is able to access the drives.

Additionally, when I have the DIN connector plugged from the rear of the 128 into the rear of the 1702 screen, even though I'm not getting a picture, I do get a small flicker whenever I power on or reset the system.  Possible signs of life?

Well, the rear connectors are for separated chroma and luma in 40 columns.  Have you plugged the correct connector into the correct port, i.e., chroma and luma?  It's possible that you may have them reversed.  If your video cable is not outputting separated chroma and luma, then it is outputting a composite signal.  If so, then you would connect to the front video port of the 1702.

            Truly,
            Robert Bernardo
            Fresno Commodore User Group
            http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[Huxley]

That's what I was thinking too, but since the cable is working in its current configuration with my C64, it makes me think that the issue lies with the 128.  To that end, I tore it back down last night, removed the Servant chip, but still get the same results.  I think my next logical step is to either buy or make a cable from the DSUB output as you previously suggested.  I suppose it's possible that the DIN-style video output is bad, but not the entire machine.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions - I'm not giving up on this one!

Huxley

Well, the rear connectors are for separated chroma and luma in 40 columns.  Have you plugged the correct connector into the correct port, i.e., chroma and luma?  It's possible that you may have them reversed.  If your video cable is not outputting separated chroma and luma, then it is outputting a composite signal.  If so, then you would connect to the front video port of the 1702.

[hydrophilic]

I suppose it's possible that the DIN-style video output is bad, but not the entire machine.

Sounds unlikely, but it wouldn't hurt to try.  The 40-column display is generated by VIC which has 2 other important roles in the system: generates clock for the 8502 CPU and performs RAM refresh.  If the VIC is bad, the system will likely not function at all.  If there's no output from 80-column (Dsub connector), then I would try replacing the VIC... if you can find one.  Its not the same used in the C64 and there different versions for NTSC or PAL.

Good luck!

[airship]

The 40-column display is generated by VIC which has 2 other important roles in the system: generates clock for the 8502 CPU and performs RAM refresh.  If the VIC is bad, the system will likely not function at all.  If there's no output from 80-column (Dsub connector), then I would try replacing the VIC... if you can find one.  Its not the same used in the C64 and there different versions for NTSC or PAL.

Specifically, the Commodore 128 has a 48-pin VIC-IIE chip numbered 8564 for the NTSC version and 8566 for PAL. Good luck finding one without scrapping another C128, though. There are some vendors who sell C64 chips on occasion, but I've seldom seen C128 chips sold.

[airship]

The Commodore 64/128 Hardware Diagnostic Chart actually says a blank 40-column screen is more likely to be caused by 5-6 other chips rather than the VIC-II. Check it out here:

http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/Tips/c64_tips.htm

Do you have the same problem when you boot in C64 mode? That would (probably?) eliminate the C128-side BASIC ROM as a possible culprit.

[Huxley]

Hi again, guys!

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas in tracking down this bug.  While I was cruising eBay for replacement cables, I stumbled upon this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290259523046

...and I just won it!  Since the seller is only an hour or so away from me, I'm going to drive up in the morning at snag my haul.  Hopefully, between the semi-functional 128 I have now, the 'new' system and the more-appropriate monitor, I'll be able to cobble together a working system.

I'll update you all once I get the stuff down here to Albuquerque!

Huxley

[airship]

[hydrophilic]

:lol: :lol:

The Commodore 64/128 Hardware Diagnostic Chart actually says a blank 40-column screen is more likely to be caused by 5-6 other chips rather than the VIC-II.

I didn't think to mention it previously, but you should also check the voltage coming from the power brick.  I had the same problem, the LED Power light came on but no screen output.  Turned out the power brick was delivering 5V DC but not 9V AC which is needed most importantly to drive the Z80 clock.  (the Z80 is the active CPU at power-on so you can see why this would be a problem)

Since you're getting another system anyway I guess it doesn't matter.  But at least you'll have a source for parts!  I hope things go better this time, Huxley.

[Huxley]

Hi Hydro,

I think you are onto something!  I picked up the 'new' 128 bundle (pics to come soon), and tried my existing AC brick with it... and got the exact same response!  Happily, the brick that came with the new system seems to work much better, and my (very) preliminary tests are looking pretty darn good - the new monitor seems to work well, the new 128 fired right up to the BASIC prompt, and the cool old-school mouse seems to be in good shape.  I've only tried loading one or two disks with the drives that came with the new system with no luck - it's hanging while trying to LOAD "*",8,1 - but given the amount of dust present in all the new gear, I'm willing to bet they just need a deep cleaning.

I'll report more tomorrow!

Huxley

I didn't think to mention it previously, but you should also check the voltage coming from the power brick.

[saehn]

Hi Hydro,

I think you are onto something!  I picked up the 'new' 128 bundle (pics to come soon), and tried my existing AC brick with it... and got the exact same response!  Happily, the brick that came with the new system seems to work much better, and my (very) preliminary tests are looking pretty darn good - the new monitor seems to work well, the new 128 fired right up to the BASIC prompt, and the cool old-school mouse seems to be in good shape.  I've only tried loading one or two disks with the drives that came with the new system with no luck - it's hanging while trying to LOAD "*",8,1 - but given the amount of dust present in all the new gear, I'm willing to bet they just need a deep cleaning.

I'll report more tomorrow!

Huxley

I didn't think to mention it previously, but you should also check the voltage coming from the power brick.

That sounds familiar. Try a cleaning disk like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Disk-Cleaning-Kit-New-Atari-800-XL-XE-Apple-Commodore_W0QQitemZ140261634480QQcmdZViewItem). Other people have suggested using Q-tips and rubbing alcohol on the drive head.

How does the new power brick work with the old system?