My first Mac... and what I think...

[xlar54]

Well, I purchased an old used Mac, a PowerMac G3, which has OS 9 on it.  Ive never even touched one of these things before mind you.. always a C= and PC user.

I want to start by saying Im not here to start a flame war over computers... we all have our reasons for picking our poison, so try and understand my point of view.

I am not impressed.

Im actually glad I bought a used machine, one that didnt even have the CD anymore.  Why?  Because the first thing I needed to do was scrub the machine and reinstall the OS - a great learning experience on the ins-and-outs of a machine.  But finding a CD is next to impossible.  First, I had to find out which version of the OS the machine will take, then I find that its pretty much impossible to find.  Some will run 9.0, some run 9.1...etc... old world vs new  world... ABP vs USB... I was *expecting* to turn it on and it just "worked", like the ads always say. 

So of course, I went out to Apple's website.  They are so busy hocking OSX, that there is very little support for OS9.  Not too surprising, as Microsoft has dropped Win NT support, etc.  But even in the Apple online "store", trying to find a copy to buy is pretty hard to do. In some cases, under certain phases of the moon, they want you to buy OSX that comes *with* OS9. (huh?!?).  I could always just go OSX, but its pretty clear to me that an older machine like this will crawl with a newer OS.  I find that it will support up to OS 10.2 or some odd revision number :/

At this point, I have a doorstop.  It will boot the existing install, but wont do much because some file named OTUtilityLib cant be found. Quicktime doesnt work.  Microsoft Office, which was apparently installed, doesnt work. Nada.  I can manage files, sure...but that hardly makes a computer useful.  Im happy to say my C128 is more useful to me than this thing. Not even internet access, even though it has an ethernet port built-in.

Im not comparing Microsoft to Apple by any means.  But Apple has tried to sell itself as a low maintenance system, that anyone can just "use".  What I have found, is that, just like Microsoft, you still need to learn quite a bit, and be prepared to jump through some hoops here and there to "use" their products. 

I am still WAY too new to Macs to know if I like them.  But what I have learned through this very enlightening process, is that they aren't exactly what they claim to be.

[RobertB]

Well, I purchased an old used Mac, a PowerMac G3,

Which PowerMac G3 -- the Desktop, the Minitower, the All-in-One, or the desirable Blue-and-White?

...which has OS 9 on it.

Upgraded, because all of the above originally came with OS 8.0, except for the Blue-and-White which came with 8.5.1.

I could always just go OSX, but its pretty clear to me that an older machine like this will crawl with a newer OS.

Not really.  If you have maximum ram in the machine, then the hit in speed shouldn't be too bad.

I find that it will support up to OS 10.2 or some odd revision number.

PowerMac Desktop, Minitower, and All-in-One supported up to OS X 10.2.8.  The Blue-and-White will let you go all the way to Tiger 10.4.11 released in 2007.

I am still WAY too new to Macs to know if I like them.  But what I have learned through this very enlightening process, is that they aren't exactly what they claim to be.

All of the PowerMac G3's, except for All-in-One, should be able to take a DVD, and I would advise that you to find a OS 10.2.x install disc (or 10.4.x install disc if you have the Blue-and-White), and then you'd get a more modern o.s. which has less strange errors that you are getting with OS 9.0.

            Truly,
            Robert Bernardo
            Fresno Commodore User Group
            http://videocam.net.au/fcug
            The Other Group of Amigoids
            http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[xlar54]

Is this guy:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAIn0R88GZ0/RnBiIfhcUNI/AAAAAAAAABM/1h-0NRLhIGc/MacG3+(3).jpg

So far, ive gotten it up to 9.1, and have downloaded enough apps to make it useful.  It only has 128 MB of RAM, which scares me to think of it running OSX.  But I will look for a CD and maybe give it a try.  I can tell you, running Netscrape is *painful*.  Ive tried a few others - WamCom (Mozilla) seems to be the best for now, but slow.  I cant find IE5 (it came with IE4 <cry>). 

Its a different world to say the least.  I have a hard time matching up what this machine would be equivalent to in the PC world.  Im guessing along the lines of a Pentium 200, Windows 98 maybe.  I dont know enough about PowerPC architectures to know.

In my previous post, I may have been overly harsh on the thing.  I guess my main point was that for all the problems I did have, I did not expect them at all.  Sure, a glitch or two when dealing with older computers is expected, and perhaps the newest Macs have outgrown those problems.  I did ..ahem locate... a copy of OSX 10.4 and am running it under the PearPC emulator, which is moderately fast, installed with no problems, and seems to be just fine.

Since Apple is now writing an OS for x86, fully support USB, etc, I cant see their point in being a hardware company anymore.  If OSX is as good as they promise, they might as well take that leap away from hardware and take on Microsoft full force as a software company.  People are already patching OSX to run directly on a PC. 

[airship]

Link is broken.

[RobertB]

Is this guy:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAIn0R88GZ0/RnBiIfhcUNI/AAAAAAAAABM/1h-0NRLhIGc/MacG3+(3).jpg

Not found, says the page.  Do you have a different link to it?

So far, ive gotten it up to 9.1, and have downloaded enough apps to make it useful.  It only has 128 MB of RAM, which scares me to think of it running OSX.

Yes, you would need more ram.

I cant find IE5...

IE 5.5 for the Mac is out there. 

I have a hard time matching up what this machine would be equivalent to in the PC world.  Im guessing along the lines of a Pentium 200, Windows 98 maybe.

The PowerMac G3's came out in the late 1990's.

               Truly,
               Robert Bernardo
               Fresno Commodore User Group
               http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[xlar54]

Sorry about the link, here's a better one:

http://www.allaboutapple.com/museo/pictures/donazioni/mac_g3_233.jpg

In addition to the above, Ive bumped it up to about 380MB RAM, and put in a 10.4 GB HD.  Seems to run much better.  Now running 9.2.2.  Im ...ahem...locating... a copy of 10.2, as Ive read that 10.4 is too high for this box, so we will see what happens.   I dont have another spare HD laying around, so it will rather bite if I have to do all this all over again :/

Any of you mac users also?  Whats your take on macs in general?

[RobertB]

Sorry about the link, here's a better one:

http://www.allaboutapple.com/museo/pictures/donazioni/mac_g3_233.jpg

Ah, you have the Power Mac G3 Desktop.

In addition to the above, Ive bumped it up to about 380MB RAM, and put in a 10.4 GB HD.  Seems to run much better.

Yeah, more ram and hard drive space will give Mac OS room to "breathe".  You may consider more ram before you install 10.2.

Now running 9.2.2.  Im ...ahem...locating... a copy of 10.2...

That's good.  10.2 Jaguar was last supported in 2003, but there are software apps still being updated for it.  At versiontracker.com, you can find the updates (and thus the programs).  Just click on 10.2.

Any of you mac users also?  Whats your take on macs in general?

Using Mac OS X is a different experience when compared with Windows.  It's a learning process, but when you get used to it, you may prefer it over Windows.  There are certain items that will keep your Mac happy (and thus will keep you happy) -- MacWasher 1.1 (commercial but you can use it for as long as you want without paying), System Optimizer X 4.7.4 (shareware but you can use it for as long as you want without paying), and AppDelete 1.1 (shareware but you can use it for as long as you want without paying).  All are 10.2-compliant.

              Truly,
              Robert Bernardo
              Fresno Commodore User Group
              http://videocam.net.au/fcug
              The Other Group of Amigoids
              http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
     

[xlar54]

Good words, Robert.  Appreciate that.  One thing that is interesting to me, regarding 9.2.2, is how GEOS-ish it feels.  I know GEOS was likely inspired by Mac or they had a common anscestor or some such, but thats the feel I get when using it, so it's kinda of interesting.  No memory protection, you're all on your own out there.   WAY better than Windows 3.11 ever was indeed.  Not so sure when compared to 95 or 98, but ... different.  Anyway, its fun to play around with.  Im really starting to get myself in trouble with all these retro computers around here though.  Bad bad bad...

[RobertB]

One thing that is interesting to me, regarding 9.2.2, is how GEOS-ish it feels.

I know GEOS was likely inspired by Mac or they had a common anscestor...

Xerox PARC.

Anyway, its fun to play around with.  Im really starting to get myself in trouble with all these retro computers around here though.  Bad bad bad...

Trouble?  Nah.  It's all good, good, good. 

                 Truly,
                 Robert Bernardo
                 Fresno Commodore User Group
                 http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[airship]

Anyway, its fun to play around with.  Im really starting to get myself in trouble with all these retro computers around here though.  Bad bad bad...

Trouble?  Nah.  It's all good, good, good. 

I dunno. I've tried very hard to stick with the C128 and associated crap, and though I do meander over into C64 territory once in awhile I've resisted the temptation of the VIC-20 and PET so far. And the Amiga? Well, she's just trouble.

I think I actually find myself enjoying the hobby more by going deeper rather than broader. I know a lot of you guys can do both, but I think I'm happy where I am. Now, back to my shiny new EPROM burner!

[Andrew Wiskow]

I have to agree with you, Airship, although I've "broadened" myself to include VIC-20, C64, and C128.  It's not that I have anything against any other computer, and I can see myself tinkering with an old Atari, Apple, TI, or Amiga computer one day if the opportunity made itself available, but for now, I'm quite content where I'm at. 

[RobertB]

     That accelerated Apple IIGS that I picked up last year still sits in storage.  However, at the urging of Duncan M. of TOGA, I will bring it to the next TOGA meeting.  He will bring a bunch of programs for me to run on it.  Then I will see if it is a machine I can take an interest in.

             Now in Sacramento, California,
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug
             The Other Group of Amigoids
             http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[xlar54]

Im not a huge collector per se... I have my trusty 128 system, and a Commodore 16.  There for awhile I was planning to collect one of each of the post PET machines.  I *really* want a C64C, VIC, and a +4, but just havent gotten around to pulling one down yet from Ebay.  The Mac was a fluke I ran into on Craigslist for cheap ($50 - it may sound high, but the lady had a massive 20" monitor with it, plus external SCSI drives, scanner, etc).

BTW, Installed OSX.. Not a bad upgrade, but too slow for my taste.. Ill play with it a little, and then likely go back to OS 9.2.2.  The classic feel I actually prefer. 

[RobertB]

Im not a huge collector per se... I have my trusty 128 system, and a Commodore 16.

I became a collector de facto.

BTW, Installed OSX.. Not a bad upgrade, but too slow for my taste..

For OS X to operate optimally, I find that it needs 512 meg of ram or more.  Try upping the ram to at least that amount, and you may see the speed increase.

          Back from the SC3 Arcade Party,
          Robert Bernardo
          Fresno Commodore User Group
          http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[RobertB]

...System Optimizer X 4.7.4 (shareware but you can use it for as long as you want without paying)...

Thinking about the slowness of your OS X 10.2 set-up, I realized that there may be other problems.  Even after a new install, OS X may be suffering from disk permissions' problems and others.  In Disk Utility, run the "repair disk permissions".  Also if it is highlighted, run the "Repair Disk".  If you get System Optimizer X 4.7.4, not only will you be able to fix permissions, but you can also repair the pre-bindings, run the cron scripts, and clear caches -- all from a convenient menu.  After this/these are repaired, you may have a bit more peppiness in the OS.
     Make sure that you have enough free space in your hard drive; never go below 10% free or the OS will slow down.
     For a great read on OS X 10.2 problems and how to cure them, go to  http://www.macattorney.com/tutorial.html

                          Yes, written by a lawyer!
                          Robert Bernardo
                          Fresno Commodore User Group
                          http://videocam.net.au/fcug
                          The Other Group of Amigoids
                          http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/