uIEC Review (fwd)

[RobertB]

-------------------------Forwarded message--------------------------
From: Larry Anderson
Date: Wed, Sep 3 2008 9:29 pm

I've just put up my review of Jim Brain's uIEC drive,

http://www.portcommodore.com/uiecreview.php

It has pictures(!) and goes into some technical detail.  Really nifty gadget.

Larry

[hydrophilic]

This is very intersting and something I'm considering.  What I'm not clear about after reading the review (I probably need to email Jim Brain) is if the device supports fast serial.  If it doesn't, my interest drops considerably.  It doesn't need to support burst mode commands like the '71 and '81 drives at the moment because those could be added with updates to the firmware (as I understand it).  If it doesn't support fast serial, then burst mode commands would never be possible...

As a user, fast serial is great for the speed (even without burst mode commands).  As a programmer, fast serial is fantastic!  You let the hardware do the transmission, making background loading trivial, and no issues with IRQs, NMIs, or DMAs.  (Note IRQs are a problem with the KERNAL's default IRQ routine, but it's trivial to fix).   Ooops, I'm preaching to the choir 

[RobertB]

This is very intersting and something I'm considering.  What I'm not clear about after reading the review (I probably need to email Jim Brain) is if the device supports fast serial.

As it is a new device, I advise caution.  The uIEC does have some teething problems -- incompatibility with certain CF cards, incompatibility with some IDE drives, no C= native utilities for it, no documentation, etc..  We had quite a discussion about it last night at the #acug chat.

                 Truly,
                 Robert Bernardo
                 Fresno Commodore User Group
                 http://videocam.net.au/fcug
                 The Other Group of Amigoids
                 http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[airship]

On another forum (can't remember where, maybe Lemon) Jim Brain said he was considering creating some SD3IEC SD2IEC boards, too.

[RobertB]

On another forum (can't remember where, maybe Lemon) Jim Brain said he was considering creating some SD3IEC boards, too.

That would be at the PETSCII Forums.

              Truly,
              Robert Bernardo
              Fresno Commodore User Group
              http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[brain]

This is very intersting and something I'm considering.  What I'm not clear about after reading the review (I probably need to email Jim Brain) is if the device supports fast serial.

The FAST SERIAL line (SRQ) is attached to the uC, but you are correct that there is no code in the firmware to support it.  There are plans to add burst support, but it's a low priority.  As you correctly surmise, support can be added later in the field via firmware.

Jim

[brain]

     As it is a new device, I advise caution.  The uIEC does have some teething problems -- incompatibility with certain CF cards, incompatibility with some IDE drives, no C= native utilities for it, no documentation, etc..  We had quite a discussion about it last night at the #acug chat.

As even CMD drives have compatibility issues with certain SCSI drives (and have had for years, which is why CMD specified only certain manufacturers and certain drive sizes), I don't see this as a huge issue.  For my part, the affected folks are mailing the CF cards to me, and I have high hopes that I can make them work.  For both CMD and myself, it is impractical to buy one of each drive option and test.  As there are many more manufacturers of CF and SD media than IDE and SCSI drives, it is that much harder to test all of the variants.  Howver, I know certain cards work, and if you are concerned, you can opt to buy a unit with a card already installed (or an IDE drive for that matter).  I will buy at cost, test, and ship the combined unit.  So far, no one has opted for that option, preferring to explore the options themselves (most likely, try to reuse existing media they have).  If there are issues and they were discussed in #acug, I am only aware of three folks with drive issues.  All have other cards to play with (that work), and are shipping me the units with issues so I can test.  Beyond that, I have not heard any reports of incompatibilities.  As a further risk mitigation, CF cards are very cheap, and can be returned if there are issues.

I doubt there will be native utilities for the unit, as the goal is to make existing utilities (like CMD utils) work with the unit. CBM standard commands are being fleshed out, and then CMD specific commands are planned.  That should allow the bulk of the CMD utilities to function without issue.

Documentation is truly a weak point, but as this is a community project, I invite others to compose some appropriate documentation.

I don't know if I'd advise caution, but you should set realistic expectations as to how you plan to use the device and whether you would like to support a project at a time of need.  Early adopters do experience more issues, but they truly do carry a successful project on their shoulders.

Jim

[got128]

Jim,

Are there any headers on the board for 5V or remote LEDs?

I saw a row of headers on the board next to the atmel chip - will software upgrades be done via a programming cable, on the CF card, or from the serial connection?

What is the availibility for these units?

thanks
got128

[RobertB]

As even CMD drives have compatibility issues with certain SCSI drives (and have had for years, which is why CMD specified only certain manufacturers and certain drive sizes)...

True.  IIRC, CMD recommended Quantum drives.  With which IDE drives have you successfully tested the uIEC?

As there are many more manufacturers of CF and SD media than IDE and SCSI drives, it is that much harder to test all of the variants.  Howver, I know certain cards work...

I forget... have you made a list of which CF cards work with the uIEC?

...I am only aware of three folks with drive issues.

What exactly were the issues?  What was your response to each issue?

I doubt there will be native utilities for the unit, as the goal is to make existing utilities (like CMD utils) work with the unit.

If CMD Utilities are to be used with the uIEC, they will have to be modified/rewritten to allow for the 4+ gigs of CF cards and massive IDE drives.  If the CMD Utilities cannot be modded or the process of rewriting the utilities is too cumbersome, then starting from scratch with a new, native utility is the other way.

              Truly,
              Robert Bernardo
              Fresno Commodore User Group
              http://videocam.net.au/fcug
              The Other Group of Amigoids
              http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[brain]

     True.  IIRC, CMD recommended Quantum drives.  With which IDE drives have you successfully tested the uIEC?

I have tested Maxtor drives and a few Quantums.  But, since I can handle so many generations of drives, specifying a manufacturer is not workable.  Still, I'm less concerned about IDE drives as I am of CF cards.  Maxtor, Quantum, and Western Digital tend to work well together to ensure they all handle the ATA specs nicely.  It's the CF cards that will no doubt be the bigger issue (and eventually SD cards), as they are developed offshore and they tend to only implement enough of the spec to ensure the card works with Windows.

     I forget... have you made a list of which CF cards work with the uIEC?

It on the C64 Wiki, but others need to add their cards.

     What exactly were the issues?  What was your response to each issue?

One issue reported was that a 16 MB card was not recognized.  As <32 MB cards have to be formatted as FAT12 (the version of FAT initially used on floppy disks), it's possible the FAT12 code is buggy.  The user was not all too worried, as they have a 2GB card that works fine.

Another person has a 16GB card that will not work correctly.  As I did not have the funds to purchase such a large card, I have not tested beyond 4GB.  As well, they have another card they are using.  The same user has an older IDE drive that does not seem to work.

In all cases, I've asked the folks to mail the CF cards to me to debug.  Some of them are enroute.

     If CMD Utilities are to be used with the uIEC, they will have to be modified/rewritten to allow for the 4+ gigs of CF cards and massive IDE drives.  If the CMD Utilities cannot be modded or the process of rewriting the utilities is too cumbersome, then starting from scratch with a new, native utility is the other way.

When CMD emulation is working, FCOPY(+), WCOPY, MCOPY, MCOMPARE, FIND, MENUETTE, CMD MOVE, and CMD TIME will  work without modification. DIR SORT, FOLLOW LINKS, DEDIT will work on any disk image. 

At some point, a replacement for BCOPY+ might be written, but current advice is to simply use a file copier to copy the files (Since you cannot do direct access on a raw FAT partition, there is less need to do a sector level copy of the HD/CF/SD).  File copying is better for FAT partitions, as a restore will create a clean FAT and minimum length directory lengths.  Obviously, any images in the FAT partition will get a sector level copy to the target medium, by nature of the image format.

Foreign Creator is not needed on the uIEC/sd2iec.

SubPartition Aid is easy to support, but neither Unseen nor I see much value in implementing 1581 sub partition support.  If someone cries for it, it'll get added.

Probably the only item to be re-implemented/modified is HD POWER TOOLS.  Since Windows and Mac partition removable cards with only 1 partition, only IDE drive users will care.

Jim

[RobertB]

I have tested Maxtor drives and a few Quantums.

What sizes of Maxtor and Quantum drives?

Still, I'm less concerned about IDE drives as I am of CF cards.

Since I have signed up for the CF/SD+IDE version of uIEC, the IDE portion is important to me.

It on the C64 Wiki, but others need to add their cards.

I don't see any listing of compatible CF cards there (no one has added any?).

Probably the only item to be re-implemented/modified is HD POWER TOOLS.  Since Windows and Mac partition removable cards with only 1 partition, only IDE drive users will care.

I would be one of those IDE drive users.

            Thanks for the comprehensive answers,
            Robert Bernardo
            Fresno Commodore User Group
            http://videocam.net.au/fcug
            The Other Group of Amigoids
            http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

P.S. How would people sign up for your uIEC mailing list?

[brain]

     What sizes of Maxtor and Quantum drives?

12GB, 30GB, 40GB, 80GB

     Since I have signed up for the CF/SD+IDE version of uIEC, the IDE portion is important to me.

Can you clarify your intended use?  Most folks ordering the unit are finding it's much cheaper and easier to buy a large (32GB) CF card and a small enclosure rather than a large enclosure, a drive, and a power supply.  At this point, while I do intend to support IDE drives, I'm mainly keeping the IDE connector in place for future ATAPI purposes (CD-ROM/DVD-ROM, etc.)

     I don't see any listing of compatible CF cards there (no one has added any?).

http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/sd2iec_%28firmware%29

     I would be one of those IDE drive users.

I understand, and I am not saying you are unimportant, but priorities gravitate towards features and functions that either the principal designers find interesting or provide benefit to the most users.

P.S. How would people sign up for your uIEC mailing list?

For now, they email me, and I send a link with subscription information.

Jim

[RobertB]

Can you clarify your intended use?

My intentions are to provide flexibility with a high degree of compatibility - whether it be with CF/SD cards or with IDE drives.

At this point, while I do intend to support IDE drives, I'm mainly keeping the IDE connector in place for future ATAPI purposes (CD-ROM/DVD-ROM, etc.)

Right, something I look forward to ever since I saw the IDE64 work with an IDE drive and with a CD-ROM drive.

http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/sd2iec_%28firmware%29

Ah, listed under SD2IEC instead of uIEC.

...but priorities gravitate towards features and functions that either the principal designers find interesting or provide benefit to the most users.

In other words, you do what you like to do, and the majority rules.

             Truly,
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[brain]

     Right, something I look forward to ever since I saw the IDE64 work with an IDE drive and with a CD-ROM drive.

Well, if you want CD-ROM support today, an IDE64 might be a better choice, as it will be quite a while before I even tackle non IDE drive support.

     Ah, listed under SD2IEC instead of uIEC.

Not exactly.  The firmware is rightly called sd2iec, which is the name of the page.  Shadowolf produced a PCB design that he also called SD2IEC, but the firmware name came first.  I decided to place the compatibility list under the firmware, since the electrical interface is trivial; it's the firmware that makes the device compatible or not (timing and commands and such)

     In other words, you do what you like, and the majority rules.

Your decision to reword signifies to me you find issue with my response.  The majority does rule, but it is incorrect to equate "like" with "interest".  I am not particularly fond of D71 format or REL files, but they are interesting (challenging) issues to solve.

uIEC is less about creating a small CBM compatible HD solution and more about using a real world problem to learn about microcontrollers, practice my aging C development skills, understand the ATA disk drive specification, comprehend the ubiquitous Microsoft FAT filesystem, learn how to design printed circuit boards, and run a solution from idea phase to production.

Jim

[RobertB]

Well, if you want CD-ROM support today, an IDE64 might be a better choice, as it will be quite a while before I even tackle non IDE drive support.

Heh, I can wait, because the new IDE64 v4.1 is not even out and won't support C128s.

Your decision to reword signifies to me you find issue with my response.

Jim, you assume too much.  I reworded so that others could see the heart of the matter... without any passive, third-person references.

uIEC is less about creating a small CBM compatible HD solution and more about using a real world problem to learn about microcontrollers, practice my aging C development skills, understand the ATA disk drive specification, comprehend the ubiquitous Microsoft FAT filesystem, learn how to design printed circuit boards, and run a solution from idea phase to production.

No need to give a justification for the development of the uIEC.  As I said before, you do what you like to do (what interests you), and we can only be the beneficiaries of your work.

             Truly,
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug
             The Other Group of Amigoids
             http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/

[brain]

I apologize, I missed this.

Jim,

Are there any headers on the board for 5V or remote LEDs?

Yes, 5V is on both headers, and remote LEDs are brought out on CONN1.  One is BUSY/ERROR and the other is the actual IDE activity signal

I saw a row of headers on the board next to the atmel chip - will software upgrades be done via a programming cable, on the CF card, or from the serial connection?

You can program the uC (upgrade) via CONN1, but it requires a special programmer (Not expensive, but not something most folks will have).  This is how I program them initially.  However, I just install what is called the "bootloader" on the device.  Then, to program the actual sd2iec codebase into the unit, I turn on the unit with a CF card in the unit.  The CF card contains the latest firmware.  When teh unit powers on, the bootloader looks for a special file on the CF card (or IDE drive, it checks the first partition of the master IDE device).  If found, it programs that file into the uC.  In this way, I verify that the upgrade functionality works, and program the unit, all in one shot.  FIeld upgrades are as simple as downloading the new firmware onto a CF card, putting the card into the unit, doing a complete power cycle of the unit, and waiting a bit for the LEDs to stop blinking.  I can;t take credit for the design, but the bootloader is an impressive design.  Programming a new firmware upgrade takes 10 seconds or so.

What is the availibility for these units?

I sent a rush board order in last Friday, and they called Monday with some issues.  Still, I should have boards this weekend, and I will solder over the weekend and early next week.  First up are folks who have paid already, then waiting list folks, and then ECCC buyers.  But, the following week, I'll solder up more boards as orders come in.  I ordered 100 units this time, so I should have plenty for a while.

Jim

[brain]

     Jim, you assume too much.  I reworded so that others could see the heart of the matter... without any passive, third-person references.

Folks might be surprised how contentious the more direct statement can be, which is why I wordsmith them (Yes, I carefully crafted it, passive references and all).  It may be coincidental that those in the vintage computer community don't like to hear reality stated directly, but I'm thinking not.

On a more relevant note, prospective buyers may ship CF cards or IDE drives to me for testing prior to shipment of a unit, or I can order drives at cost and ship tested combinations.  For IDE users, the buyer would still need to source a suitable power supply, but those are extremely compatible.

Jim

[RobertB]

Folks might be surprised how contentious the more direct statement can be, which is why I wordsmith them (Yes, I carefully crafted it, passive references and all).

Yes, I see what you're doing.

On a more relevant note, prospective buyers may ship CF cards or IDE drives to me for testing prior to shipment of a unit, or I can order drives at cost and ship tested combinations.

That sounds like a good thing... testing out a prospective IDE drive to see if it works and sending out uIEC/tested IDE drive combinations.

             Truly,
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[airship]

I received my hand-delivered uIEC from Jim at lunch last Saturday. The best part was getting to meet him and jawing about Commodore computers for an hour or two.

I'm still digging for my one and only CF card. (It's in a box with my old Sony Clie somewhere.) I tried to buy one at Best Buy the other day but they don't even sell them anymore. Though I hate to, I may have to patronize Wally World, or even buy online.

I've got the unit plugged in, and if I do a diRonU10, the error light flashes and ?DS$ says 'DRIVE NOT READY', so at least I know it's communicating.

I want to try the hard drive, too. I read in one of the forums that the cheapest way to go is to get a USB drive kit for a PC. That way you get an enclosure and a power supply that will work. The uIEC is tiny enough, I expect the case will hold it, as well. These regularly sell for under $20 on the eBays, including shipping.

[brain]

Just a note that I did indeed design and am preparing to sell a SD2IEC-like device.  Termed uIEC/SD, it uses the same sd2iec firmware, but is available in a slightly smaller footprint (1.5"x1.5") and uses the uIEC 128kB CPU.  All other functionlaity is as with sd2iec.

Production units should be available on or immediately after January 20th, 2009.  I have uIEC/IDE+CF units here as well, and am working on some additional enhancements/related projects.

[RobertB]

Just a note that I did indeed design and am preparing to sell a SD2IEC-like device.  Termed uIEC/SD, it uses the same sd2iec firmware, but is available in a slightly smaller footprint (1.5"x1.5") and uses the uIEC 128kB CPU.  All other functionlaity is as with sd2iec.

Production units should be available on or immediately after January 20th, 2009.  I have uIEC/IDE+CF units here as well...

All right!  Definite word!

             Happy New Year!
             Robert Bernardo
             Fresno Commodore User Group
             http://videocam.net.au/fcug
             The Other Group of Amigoids
             http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
             Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
             http://www.sccaners.org/