Jugg'ler 128 / General CP/M questions

[ruthven]

Just started learning about the C128's CP/M mode...  I have a specific task in mind that I'm assuming is possible: I'm attempting to recreate a program disk for the Kaypro II--specifically, it's the software that controls a giant old digital synthesizer known as the "DK Synergy".  I've managed to find the program files, but they need to be written to a 5 1/4" disk in Kaypro CP/M format.  I read a little about Jugg'ler 128 and feel this program is up to the task.  But first I need to figure out how to transfer Jugg'ler to a disk that I can access in CP/M mode...

It would be great if I could find Jugg'ler in .D64 format for download--then I would just use "copy disk" in Star Commander to re-create the disk.  This method worked great to make my initial CP/M boot disk and the supplement disk (with extra commands) as those disks were available as .D64 images.  But the only download link I can find for Jugg'ler (on zimmers.net) is in .LZH format.  Unfortunately Star Commander doesn't let you just "Copy disk" from the highlighted archive file like it does for .D64s--you can view the contents of it, but I am unable to copy each of the shown files individually--it returns some kind of error.

So I extracted the contents of the .LZH in Winrar and then wrote each of those files individually to a disk in Star Commander.  But in writing the disk this way, Jugg'ler is now on a CBM formatted disk which CP/M can't natively read.  Funny, I got a CP/M program (or maybe it's an "extension" or "command"--pardon my terminology) that reads CBM disks--only that too was in .LZH format, leaving me no way (that I know of) of transferring the raw files contained therein to a disk that can be read in CP/M.

So... are there any utilities for CP/M that can read CBM disks that I can download in .D64 format?  Or does anybody have (or know where to get) Jugg'ler 128 in a .D64?  Thanks for reading.

[Hydrophilic]

Sorry I don't know of any CP/M software that can be used to read CBM disk formats.  Nor do I know of any .D64 image of Jugler 128.

So, for the benefit of you and the entire Commodore community, I published Juggler 128 in both D64 and ZIP formats.  The ZIP has the D64 image and an informational TXT file that would not fit on a D64.

I had all of this on my hard drive and a D81 image.  But because you asked for D64, I created one with ctools  (available from Zimmers, direct download here).  I was going to recommend ctools as a good cross-platform disk image tool.  Unfortunately I discovered in the process that it is quite a bitch.  Specifically, I could only write files into the disk image if the source files and the disk image are in the same directory!  It took me 30-60 minutes to figure this out.  Perhaps the problem is I was using Windows and the software was developed with Linux ?  Anyway, if you can live with the restrictive 'one directory' rule, it is quite useful for transfering files to/from CBM-format-CP/M disk images.

You might also want to read a related thread on this forum.

Have fun!

BTW, Juggler is (c) 1988, 1996 Herne Data Systems Ltd.  I have used it to run CP/M software for Tandy (TRS-80) computers; both applications and text adventures (games).

[ruthven]

Thanks very much for taking the time!  Actually, I went back to zimmers.net and downloaded a .D64 image of a "faster" CP/M system--there was a text file inside that showed how that .D64 was constructed using cformat / ctools... so I went back to zimmers.net specifically looking for ctools but could not for the life of me find it.  So thanks for that link--turns out it's under cbm/crossplatform/converters/unix (I didn't even realize it was linux code)--and I was hunting for it under "cpm".  And thanks for taking the time to learn how it worked, what with using the same directory and all.  It would have taken me all night to figure that out--especially in the tired state I was in by then.  And I was still up past 3am trying all this out (and then back to work by 7am)!  It was worth it though--I got Jugg'ler 128 working.  I also used ctools to write the Synergy control program to a CP/M disk...  and I actually got that old Kaypro software RUNNING on the C128!!  Too bad there's no built-in RS232, or I bet I could actually use the C128 to control the synth.

[Blacklord]

Too bad there's no built-in RS232, or I bet I could actually use the C128 to control the synth.

Have a hunt for BYE 128

[bacon]

it's the software that controls a giant old digital synthesizer known as the "DK Synergy".

That is so cool! I remember reading about the Synergy in Mark Vail's "Vintage Synthesizers" column in Keyboard Magazine some odd 20 years ago. Yes, it was considered vintage already in the early 90's. I have to dig up that article.

How did you get the Synergy? What did you pay? It must be a true collector's item, and a really great synth to play around with too.

[ruthven]

How did you get the Synergy? What did you pay? It must be a truecollector's item, and a really great synth to play around with too.

Ahhh.... well... I don't actually have a Synergy... yet...  I see that my original post makes it sound like I did.  I *want* a Synergy.. badly.  I almost bid on one yesterday--I had been following the auction all week.  Alas the seller was unable to test it so I held off, unsure of how much money I was willing to "risk".  It ended up selling for just over $450--which, really, is well worth it for parts alone (providing the synth didn't work).  Now if that synth is working, then the high bidder got himself one hell of a deal!  I'm kind of regreting my decision to bow out of that auction now--may never get a chance to score one so cheap again.

Anyway, before diving straight into this without knowing what I was up against, I learned as much as I could about this instrument and how to control it.  It seems most people who have these synths nowadays don't have a Kaypro to control it let alone the necessary software.  So to them the synth is basically a glorified preset keyboard, stuck with whatever sounds happened to be saved in it's onboard memory banks.  I wanted to make sure I'd be able to control this synth to it's full potential if I ended up dropping the big bucks.  So I found the system software for it, discovered it had to be in CP/M format for the Kaypro, and then thought--wait a minute: doesn't the C128 sport a CP/M mode?--could help...

So I posed the question here, figuring I may be able to recreate the software beforehand and hence be more sure of my future purchase.  Which is exactly what I've done now thanks to Hydrophilic in providing me the Jugg'ler image and the link for ctools.  Too bad I stepped out on that auction now.  But this hasn't all been for nothing--now that I know I have a working copy of the software, I'm more intent than ever in making this pipedream of mine a reality!  And it's cool to finally get some exposure to C128 CP/M.  In fact, the necessity of the C128's role in this whole process makes it that much cooler if you ask me.  Cool to put the Commodore to a "real tangible use" beyond simple hobby.. well, synths are just another hobby too I guess...  one hobby supplementing another--very cool!

[bacon]

Good luck! I really hope you find one in working order and for a reasonable price.

I love old synths but I live in an apartment with limited storage space so I only get to play with modern simulations on the PC. Except for once in a while when I drag out my trusty old Akai AX-60, that is.  I've had it since 1987 and will never get rid of it willingly. There's something special about real VCOs and VCFs.

[ruthven]

There's something special about real VCOs and VCFs.

Yes indeed.  Which is why I need to get myself a true analog polyphonic synth one of these days...  Even if I end up getting a Synergy as that's technically digital (though it's so warm sounding).  I had actually looked into getting an AX-60 at one point and still check them out from time to time.  Currently I think I'm holding off for an old Kawai or Siel.

Anyway, getting back on topic here--I haven't been able to put Jugg'ler to the test yet as I don't own a 1571 drive (I'm currently bidding on one actually).  Everything I've done in CP/M land so far has been on the old 1541--which I was surprised I could actually use to write CP/M disks--so I guess Commodore's own CP/M format is GCR compatible?  This is interesting as most of what I've read on CP/M seems to generally associate this format with MFM.

Can't wait to get a 1571 though as CP/M is intolerably slow (even with the Warp Speed cartridge) using a 1541!  Which leads to a question--can the 1541 with Jugg'ler write any other formats (CP/M or otherwise) besides Commodore's own CP/M?  Or are all the other CP/M formats strictly MFM (non GCR compatible)?  Also, it seems I'm stuck in 40 columns with my composite input monitor... will Jugg'ler even run in 40 columns?--I mean, I got the program up and running but can only see half the screen's worth of text--I'm assuming it will still function providing I know what keystrokes to make (so I'm probably going to be simultaneously running it in an emulator in 80 col so I know what I'm doing!)...

Incidentally, I was talking with a guy who knows a thing or two about the Synergy and he swears that I cannot format a Kaypro disk on anything but a Kaypro computer--not even with a 1571 and Jugg'ler...  Makes me want to try it all the more of course...

[airship]

A 1541 will only read/write Commodore's own weird CP/M format, which is, indeed, GCR. All other CP/M formats are MFM. The FORMAT command will only format disks in C128 single or double sided, or C64 CP/M formats, using a 1571 drive. There may be other utilities to format other disk types, but none are supplied with the Commodore disks.

I strongly suggest you get a copy of "Mastering Disk Operations on the Commodore 128", which is actually a book about C128 CP/M. It nicely supplements the Digital Research CP/M+ books (which you should also get) with information about the C128-specific aspects of this version of CP/M.

If Lance still has it around anywhere, you should also read my compilation called "Transactor_C128.pdf". It contains all of the articles that ever appeared in the Transactor concerning the C128, and there's a substantial section on CP/M, including inside details on 1571 compatible disk formats. If Lance can't make it available, PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you.