The ultimate 8-bit computer

[kernal34]

I've been thinking this for a couple years now. We need a company to produce the ultimate 8-bit computer for hobbiest....

Imagine....

20Mhz or so advanced 8-bit CPU
simple graphics ability that gives 640x480 with 256 colors... no fancy modes required. Just with no restrictions per pixel.
512KB RAM... standard with ability to add more... Maybe 2MB or so.

USB drive support... (no moving drives, just USB memory key support.)

simple kernal design, allowing improvments by the hobbiests....

Mass production..

No Microsoft crap whatsoever....

built in ML Monitor and assembler...

I would buy one... $500.00 or so.... hmmmm

[Mark Smith]

The Commodore-One is what you are looking for then .. it's 16bit rather than 8bit mind.

[bill.mann]

The Commodore-One is what you are looking for then .. it's 16bit rather than 8bit mind.

Yeah....   reckon we'll ever see a Commodore core for it ?

Bill

[Style_CHM]

by my calculations you wouldnt even be able to do double buffering with your RAM/graphic HW setup

[RobertB]

reckon we'll ever see a Commodore core for it ?

The NTSC and PAL cores are already there for the CommodoreOne.  Work continues on them.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[OzOne]

Hi Bill,

The Commodore-One is what you are looking for then .. it's 16bit rather than 8bit mind.

Yeah....   reckon we'll ever see a Commodore core for it ?

Bill

Probably not in our lifetimes Well maybe not quite true as I think there is an Alpha release of the C64 core available. Only taken 'em what ? 3 years ?

I *wouldn't* hold my breath for a C128 core!

Oz

[Guest]

Hi Bill,

The Commodore-One is what you are looking for then .. it's 16bit rather than 8bit mind.

Yeah....   reckon we'll ever see a Commodore core for it ?

Bill

Probably not in our lifetimes Well maybe not quite true as I think there is an Alpha release of the C64 core available. Only taken 'em what ? 3 years ?

I *wouldn't* hold my breath for a C128 core!

Oz

There's nowhere near enough logic elements to do the VDC, 8502, and Z80.  Maybe with the new daughter board that Jens is working on, but definitely not with the current FPGAs.

[Blacklord]

I'd be happy to see even a 40 column implementation - however, the lack of theZ80 code could create a problem

Still, for the time being VICE is fine for most of my uses, I do have a spare PC set up that boots automatically to X128. And the emulation is improved on each release. Hopefully I'll be able to ultimately store my two 128D's away for posterity eventually. I always worry that sooner or later they'll die & I won't be able to repair 'em

cheers,

            Lance

[commodor]

One word: PRICE. The board is just way too expensive. And all the infighting and crap over the last few years hasn't helped it either.

~@commodor@~

[bill.mann]

One word: PRICE. The board is just way too expensive. And all the infighting and crap over the last few years hasn't helped it either.

~@commodor@~

Ya, add in postage to here & the board is far too expensive for what it is. $100 US would be a price where i might consider buying it. Then again, I wouldn't really have any great use for it, my original hardware will do just fine until it finally goes to bit-rot heaven.

Bill

[commodor]

One word: PRICE. The board is just way too expensive. And all the infighting and crap over the last few years hasn't helped it either.

~@commodor@~

Ya, add in postage to here & the board is far too expensive for what it is. $100 US would be a price where i might consider buying it. Then again, I wouldn't really have any great use for it, my original hardware will do just fine until it finally goes to bit-rot heaven.

Bill

I'm more concerned than anything else about support. The whole way it's been managed has been less than perfect & the fact that a CBM 8 bit core has taken so long leaves me to wonder if it's worth it. I did consider about 2 years ago buying one of the boards but at that stage only the Amstrad CPC core was available, really not something I wanted & disapointing considering that it was originally designed & touted as a Commodore replacement.

And did I mention price ? 269 Euros can get you a much faster PC that can emulate any of these systems. Just what the Commodore community needs - another orphan!

~@commodor@~

[Mark Smith]

You're all so negative about the Commodore-One!

Look at it from the perspective of a hobbiest ... you have FULL access to the hardware of a machine, you get access to all the docs, all the source code and if you so wish you can change the configuration of the hardware using software.  The whole concept is that if you are writing an application and need a video decoder then you just load a new core into a FPGA and away you go .. when it's no longer required you can replace it with something else.

It's not intended as a mass market computer, it's for a limited subset people wanting to play and learn computers at a much more basic level, which means it's a niche product without a userbase out there that would pay for mass productions .. which means the people who do want it will be paying more .. and again the people who know about it are from the Commodore Era and are old enough to afford the odd toy (ie. 22 year old computers! :-)

I know I want to learn about FPGAs and I am planning to get a C-one as soon as I've built a computer room :-)

[adric22]

I've been thinking this for a couple years now. We need a company to produce the ultimate 8-bit computer for hobbiest....

Have you seen the Commodore DTV?

20Mhz or so advanced 8-bit CPU
simple graphics ability that gives 640x480 with 256 colors... no fancy modes required. Just with no restrictions per pixel.
512KB RAM... standard with ability to add more... Maybe 2MB or so.

The DTV has 2 MB of RAM and an additional 2 MB of Flash for storage of whatever you want.  256 color graphics with no restrictions per pixel..

USB drive support... (no moving drives, just USB memory key support.)

With the onboard flash being re-writable, you get this functionality.  Also a ramdisk is now available, and if that isn't good enough then you can add a 1541-III which uses SD cards.

simple kernal design, allowing improvments by the hobbiests...

DTV has that.

Mass production..

DTV Has this too.

No Microsoft crap whatsoever....

Unfortunatly, all Commodore systems have some form of Microsoft BASIC.. so you can't get away from that unless you write everything from scratch.

built in ML Monitor and assembler...

DTV has this.. DTVMon (or whatever monitor and assembler you'd like to store in flash)

I would buy one... $500.00 or so.... hmmmm

Sorrry.. the DTV only costs about $20.   But if you need it to cost more, I can buy some and sell them to you for $500.

[commodor]

You're all so negative about the Commodore-One!

You have to admit, development has been very slow & often disrupted by infighting.

~@commodor@~

[Mark Smith]

You're all so negative about the Commodore-One!

You have to admit, development has been very slow & often disrupted by infighting.

~@commodor@~

Well it is a hobbiest thing ... would it be better if it didn't exist at all ?

Most manufacturers of niche products are quite useless at professionalism when it comes to talking to their customers, support or responding to criticism ... look at the Amiga community for how not to treat people buying your products!  (clashing nerd egos are the main problem :-)

But I've not heard to much bad stuff about the C-1, it's good that Jeri has dished manufacturing off to Jens (as well as tweaks for it), but it's always going to be slow development as they have real lives to live and real jobs to make them money so they can afford to play with the toys.

Regards!

[Guest]

You're all so negative about the Commodore-One!

You have to admit, development has been very slow & often disrupted by infighting.

~@commodor@~

Well it is a hobbiest thing ... would it be better if it didn't exist at all ?

Most manufacturers of niche products are quite useless at professionalism when it comes to talking to their customers, support or responding to criticism ... look at the Amiga community for how not to treat people buying your products!  (clashing nerd egos are the main problem :-)

But I've not heard to much bad stuff about the C-1, it's good that Jeri has dished manufacturing off to Jens (as well as tweaks for it), but it's always going to be slow development as they have real lives to live and real jobs to make them money so they can afford to play with the toys.

Regards!

Jeri got paid real money by Jens to finish the NTSC Core, something she has yet to do.  As one of the first purchasers of a C-One, you cannot understand my complete disenchantment with the whole scenario and now anytime I here Jeri has promised to do anything relating to the C-One it makes me angry because I already know what the outcome is going to be.

I'm hoping the new expander board will salvage the C-One.  If it looks like it will solve the space problems that Jeri has complained about and Jeri actually backs up her claims about the original being too restricted by implementing the NTSC core and the native C-One core we were promised, then and only then will I be happy with the C-One.

[Golan Klinger]

I've heard a few variations on the Jens-Jeri C-One saga (read he said/she said) and I take them all with a grain of salt. None of us know what really happened.

[RobertB]

Jeri got paid real money by Jens to finish the NTSC Core, something she has yet to do.

Ah, Jens has never told the full story.  Sure Jeri was paid, but he fails to add that he only partially paid her.  Boy, how many times have I heard him with that same partial story, the last being at the AmiWest Show 2006.

...now anytime I here Jeri has promised to do anything relating to the C-One it makes me angry...

Another bit of Jens playing with words.  He constantly says, "Jeri promised this... Jeri promised that", and thus deflects any responsibility he had in how the C-One turned out.

If it looks like it will solve the space problems that Jeri has complained about and Jeri actually backs up her claims about the original being too restricted by implementing the NTSC core and the native C-One core we were promised, then and only then will I be happy with the C-One.

If Jens had not originally skimped on the size of the FPGA's (due to saving a few Euros) and listened to Jeri's advice, there would be no need for the "extender" board.  In fact, if he had produced it the original way she wanted, there would have been far less problems with transferring the NTSC core she had working in the prototype, i.e., because of the cost-reduced, handicapped production board, Jeri had to go through 12-14 hour days of intense rewrite of the NTSC core just to get it to work partially in the production board.  In other words, years of problems would have been shaved off of C-One development if Jens had just put in the FPGA's Jeri wanted in the production board.

Sincerely,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[Style_CHM]

Depends on what their understanding was. Jeri probably took partial payment with the understanding that she would reach a project milestone (whatever may have been agreed) before receiving another partial payment. Then the DTV got in the way.

No matter how you spin it, it looks like Jeri screwed Jens (and the rest of the c-one community). What we do know is that Jeri accepted (partial) payment from Jens, but didnt deliver the required milestone as agreed.

[RobertB]

Depends on what their understanding was. Jeri probably took partial payment with the understanding that she would reach a project milestone (whatever may have been agreed) before receiving another partial payment.

A supposition.

Then the DTV got in the way.

It did not get in the way.  It was a godsend.  For 2 years Jeri worked full-time on this C-One project with only a partial payment, no other monies coming in, and no getting past the FPGA faults of the cost-reduced C-One board, no matter how much she worked on recoding her core.  In colloquial terms, she had hit a wall.  When Mammoth contacted her to work on the DTV, she found a regular job with regular monies coming in, a way to pay off her debts of 2 years.

No matter how you spin it, it looks like Jeri screwed Jens (and the rest of the c-one community).

If you are looking for a scapegoat, I refer you back to Jens who cost-reduced the board to what we have today, a patchwork of hacks and another hack coming in the way of the "extender" board for which he will charge 99 Euros.  If he had just put in the FPGAs Jeri wanted (which would have only cost a few Euros more for each board), we would not have this situation.  No matter how you spin it, Jens screwed himself (ouch!) and the "community".

What we do know is that Jeri accepted (partial) payment from Jens, but didnt deliver the required milestone as agreed.

Another "milestone" supposition.  What we know is that Jeri delivered the board that was required of her (cost-reduced and without  Jens' having further prototype-testing to catch bugs) and that Jeri tried valiantly to get recode her core to get past the production C-One's faults.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[Golan Klinger]

Like I said, two sides to every story. It is better (more productive) to spend time and energy to rectify problems than it is to waste it trying to assign blame. That philosophy has served me well.

[Stephane Richard]

I agree with gklinger,

I agree with both sides described here too.  I mean, the points being brought out from both sides are valid to the best of my knowledge.

Me, I don't mind if it crippled it or not, I always used 128 mode anyway and well that and BASIC 7.0 rocked back then compared to whatever else was out there. :-)   That's all that really mattered to me back than, and today ;-).  though if vice can do it I just might give CP/M a shot today (way too late but still better late than never ;-) ).

[xlar54]

Unfortunately I dont even know what a C-One is. Ive seen the website, but I still dont get it.

Kernal34 has some good thoughts, but Id just like to see a machine that boots to BASIC 7, and gives you access to your PC floppy drives and hard drives as device 8,9, etc, your modem as a super charged 1670, a built in RAM unit, etc.  The most frustrating part of owning a real C128 right now is the lack of ability to use PC hard drive space as a drive.  I know there's VC1541 and 64HHD, but both have issues.  (64HDD is sooooo close - but I still need to be able to access the machine remotely, which means Windows instead of DOS).   Kills me that even today, we must still rely on DOS to get an old (ahem mature) 6502 based machine to read/write to a PC harddrive.

The idea of booting up to a 100% compatible C128 clone system which can access PC devices as if they were real serial devices should be easy to do, relatively speaking.  Anyone care to convert VICE to a full fledged operating system?

[Blacklord]

Unfortunately I dont even know what a C-One is. Ive seen the website, but I still dont get it.

Kernal34 has some good thoughts, but Id just like to see a machine that boots to BASIC 7, and gives you access to your PC floppy drives and hard drives as device 8,9, etc, your modem as a super charged 1670, a built in RAM unit, etc.  The most frustrating part of owning a real C128 right now is the lack of ability to use PC hard drive space as a drive.  I know there's VC1541 and 64HHD, but both have issues.  (64HDD is sooooo close - but I still need to be able to access the machine remotely, which means Windows instead of DOS).   Kills me that even today, we must still rely on DOS to get an old (ahem mature) 6502 based machine to read/write to a PC harddrive.

The idea of booting up to a 100% compatible C128 clone system which can access PC devices as if they were real serial devices should be easy to do, relatively speaking.  Anyone care to convert VICE to a full fledged operating system?

Hear! Hear!

Lance

[Murple]

Personally, I think I already have the ultimate 8-bit computer... my Commodore 128. If I want a computer with modern features, I'll use my Linux computer. If I wanna run an 8 bit system, I want to run my old vintage system. I've got no interest in stuff like SuperCPU and higher graphics resolutions.

What I would like to see though are peripherals of convenience. A big one would be more modern, reliable disk storage system which is able to emulate a 1541 enough for copy protected games. Either something based on flash memory, or hard drives. Ideally you could plug it into a PC as well for the purpose of transferring programs from the internet, or for making CDROM backups of programs. I'm aware that similar devices exist already, but they're sometimes hard to find, and none emulate a 1541 enough for all copy protection.

Actually, that alone would be enough for me to be satisfied. Some high speed transfer (ethernet or some sort of advanced nullmodem) would be neat to have, and they exist... but I dont consider that urgent. My main concern is just to have a more reliable long term way to store software as vintage Commodore drives start to break beyond repair and 5.25" programs start wear out and new floppies become hard to find.

It'd be cool if someone produced some new runs of 100% compatible MOS chip clones to replace aging SID, VIC, and other chips. At some point, though probably not for years, "get a parts system on eBay and yank the good chips" will start being a less viable option. I'd like to find/build a more reliable power supply some day, but that isnt anything too outlandish and I dont think would require any advanced electronics skill to build. Likewise, buying/making some heat sinks or fans for my computers might be a good idea... Ray Carlsen's got a good doc on that. I've just not gotten around to it yet.

But yeah, I think the C64/128 are already the ultimate 8 bit system. And the Amigas are the ultimate 16 bit... I'd just like some extensions to help keep them viable systems long into the future. I think preservation is much more a priority than extension.