Since no one else seems to want to post a trivia question, here's one for you:
To the C128's eternal shame, it incorporates ONE bit of legacy from the Plus/4. What is it?
(Here's a hint: to be absolutely truthful, this C128 attribute/part/thing/whatever is exactly like the Plus/4 EXCEPT for one little thing...)
The power connector?
Quote from: airship on January 09, 2008, 05:21 AM
Since no one else seems to want to post a trivia question, here's one for you:
To the C128's eternal shame, it incorporates ONE bit of legacy from the Plus/4. What is it?
(Here's a hint: to be absolutely truthful, this C128 attribute/part/thing/whatever is exactly like the Plus/4 EXCEPT for one little thing...)
Hint: Bil Herd was talking about this on comp.sys.cbm recently.
Lance
Really? I just picked it up from an old C128 book. It's interesting how this old info bubbles up independently sometimes.
Quote from: Blacklord on January 14, 2008, 05:19 PMHint: Bil Herd was talking about this on comp.sys.cbm recently.
I believe this (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.cbm/browse_thread/thread/fbdd56f8070e6089/261c0b5fb163b3db) is the thread on the comp.sys.cbm newsgroup that Lance is referring to. Bil made three posts in this thread, one of which was in reply to a question I asked him. Very interesting information. And yet, after reading through it all, I still don't know the answer to this trivia question... :-[
-Andrew
Uh... It's not in there. The 128 is only mentioned once, and it's only as a possible source of a substitute power connector for a Plus/4 refit.
Nope, that's not it.
I'm talking internals, not externals. If that helps.
The machine code monitor ?
The "love".
Interesting. I hadn't thought about the machine code monitor. I suppose it COULD be a retread from the Plus/4. Does anyone know?
But what I'm thinking of is exactly like the Plus/4 EXCEPT for one small detail...
Quote from: airship on January 15, 2008, 07:58 AM
But what I'm thinking of is exactly like the Plus/4 EXCEPT for one small detail...
Power connector:
128
1 5v dc
2 ground
3 9v ac
4 ground
5 9v ac
Plus 4
1 5v dc
2 9v ac
3 9v ac
4 ground
Or is that too big a detail?
Quote from: smf on January 15, 2008, 08:54 PM
Quote from: airship on January 15, 2008, 07:58 AM
But what I'm thinking of is exactly like the Plus/4 EXCEPT for one small detail...
Power connector:
128
1 5v dc
2 ground
3 9v ac
4 ground
5 9v ac
Plus 4
1 5v dc
2 9v ac
3 9v ac
4 ground
Or is that too big a detail?
I thought I just said that? :)
Think ROMs.
ROMS ?
The option to have custom ROMs in a provided socket ?
The use of 28pin ROMS ?
Come on put us out of our misery! :-)
Quote from: Mark Smith on January 17, 2008, 06:21 AM
Come on put us out of our misery! :-)
Yeah, it's gone long past the 72 hours in the rules.
Sorry...
It's in the 80-column character ROM. The character set definition, except for the letter 'm', is taken from the Plus/4 set.
Interesting. So... what was so crappy about the Plus/4's 'm' that they went and changed it for the 128? :P
I have absolutely no idea. Any of you Plus/4 guys have an opinion on the 'm'? :)
Uh... wait a second. Just noticed you wrote "It's in the 80-column character ROM. The character set definition, except for the letter 'm', is taken from the Plus/4 set."
The VDC doesn't have its own character ROM. Character definitions are copied into VDC RAM from the same set used for the VIC.
My bad. I saw this information in the context of C128-mode use, which made me think of 80-column.
Here's the relevant item from Zimmers:
Quotehttp://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/c128/
Commodore 64 character set and C128 mode character set. In the C128 mode set, the lower case characters b, d, f, h, i, j, k, l, m, s, t, u, w and y are different (all except the m are equal to the plus/4 character set).
Upon rereading, I'm now assuming that ONLY the characters named are from the Plus/4 as opposed to being from the original C64 character set. And they re-did the 'm' too, but for some reason didn't want to use the Plus4 version. Which still begs the question, 'Why not?'
Anyway, looks I need to take a couple of weeks off and rest. I've made a bundle of technical goofs lately.
You guys go ahead without me. :(
That was a not solvable puzzle for someone who uses a european C128.
The first charset is like the C64 charset (naturally)
The second is county specific and not equivalent to Plus/4.
Does anyone hava a screenshot of the US C128 charset?
I always wonder how the second charset on a US C128 does look like.
WTE
Sorry, I certainly wasn't thinking internationally there, was I. :(
Quote from: airshipYou guys go ahead without me. :(
We will not leave you behind!
Okay, here we go.
(http://2mhz.net/plus4m.gif)(http://2mhz.net/128m.gif)
Plus/4 on left, C128 on right.
Now that I see it up close like that, I can see why they didn't use the Plus/4's "m". It's hideous.
What I don't see is what's different between the C64 and C128 "m". Perhaps a side-by-side close-up of those two are in order? ;)
-Andrew
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 18, 2008, 02:51 PM
What I don't see is what's different between the C64 and C128 "m". Perhaps a side-by-side close-up of those two are in order? ;)
There is no difference! I can't see any.
Ehem, now I'm totally confused.
The solution of this puzze was: The C128 has the same charset as the Plus/4 exept "m"
But the "m" is equivalent to the C64 charset!
On my C128 all chars of the "first" charset are equivalent to the c64. And I didn't know that there are differences between the charsets of Plus/4 and C64. (Ok, I learned today: exept the "m"). I have to do some research:
Here is the first charset (VICE european C128)
(http://www.c128.net/temp/charset1.gif)
and the second one
(http://www.c128.net/temp/charset2.gif)
and the charset of the Plus4
(http://www.c128.net/temp/charset+4.gif)
and the charset of the C64
(http://www.c128.net/temp/char64.gif)
(ups! usual typo with z/y - both keys positions are interchanged on a german keyborad)
Ok. The Plus/4
has a different charset (b,c,f,i,j,k,m,s,t,u,w,y).
As you can see the second charset on a german C128 is
totally different from C64 and Plus/4.
And the US C128 charset looks like the Plus/4 ones (exept the "m")? - Not really nice! (much to fat on the VDC screen)
I love the slim german/european charset!
WTE
Quote from: wte on January 19, 2008, 09:30 AMAnd the US C128 charset looks like the Plus/4 ones (exept the "m")? - Not really nice! (much to fat on the VDC screen)
I love the slim german/european charset!
WTE
That's just it... The US C128 charset DOESN'T look like the Plus/4. My C128's all look like the ones you displayed. Perhaps that's a special kind of charachter chip on Bo Zimmerman's website? I don't know...
I've never seen that second charset you displayed though... How do you activate it?
-Andrew
Pardon, but I didn't understand your posting in all parts.
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 19, 2008, 11:35 AM
That's just it...
What is that refered to?
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 19, 2008, 11:35 AM
The US C128 charset DOESN'T look like the Plus/4. My C128's all look like the ones you displayed.
Which one? The first or second? There should be two different charsets! And the first one should be the same as of the C64.
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 19, 2008, 11:35 AM
I've never seen that second charset you displayed though... How do you activate it?
May be the answer to my last question.
But now I didn't understand the whole thread.
You say: The C128 has the same charset as the C64 (in europe it has!)
But the puzzle says it has the Plus/4 charset exept the "m"!
That's weird!
How to activate the second charset: Pressing "ASC/DIN" key that's all. That switches the CharROM select in $01. The key is named "Caps Lock" on a US C128 (right from the "ALT" key). I don't know what it does on an US C128 (may be nomen est omen). OK, and now I remember. There isn't a second charset on an US C128.
The "ASC/DIN" key is connected to the relevant switch bit of the processor in $01. It is bit#6.
You can set bit 6 in the DDR of the processor ($00) to make bit 6 of $01 a "write" port and send "1" to Bit 6 of $01 to activate the second charset and "0" to deactivate.
The SupeCPU128 has a bug. CMD forgot to implement the ability to change bit 6 of $00. It is always "read only". They didn't read the specs of the "international" version of the C128. That is bad. This bit was often used to "fix" the position of the "ASC/DIN" key by software because if you accidentally press the key the charset switsches automaticly - also on the VDC (!!!) and destroys any individual upload charset :(
And yes of course you can use this "second font" feature in the C64 mode too!
WTE
Quote from: wte on January 19, 2008, 11:29 PMYou say: The C128 has the same charset as the C64 (in europe it has!)
But the puzzle says it has the Plus/4 charset exept the "m"!
That's weird!'
I think you answered all of your questions in this statement. ;)
And yes, it is weird...
Quote from: wte on January 19, 2008, 11:29 PMHow to activate the second charset: Pressing "ASC/DIN" key that's all. That switches the CharROM select in $01. The key is named "Caps Lock" on a US C128 (right from the "ALT" key). I don't know what it does on an US C128 (may be nomen est omen). OK, and now I remember. There isn't a second charset on an US C128.
The "Caps Lock" key on a C128 from English-speaking countries (let's not forget Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the U.K. by referring to it as a "US C128"... That's something I'd expect from other Americans...) is slightly different from the "Shift Lock" key. When you press "Shift Lock", then anything you press will be shifted, so an A will be capitalized, and a 1 will be an exlamation point. But if you press "Caps Lock", then the A will still be capitalized, but the 1 will be a 1. So while "Shift Lock" affects ALL keys pressed, "Caps Lock" only affects letters.
Quote from: wte on January 19, 2008, 11:29 PMThe "ASC/DIN" key is connected to the relevant switch bit of the processor in $01. It is bit#6.
You can set bit 6 in the DDR of the processor ($00) to make bit 6 of $01 a "write" port and send "1" to Bit 6 of $01 to activate the second charset and "0" to deactivate.
This seems like a feature that should have been implimented on ALL C128's... In my honest opinion, the Caps Lock key is not very useful. I don't think I've ever used it, except to see what it does... ;)
-Andrew
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 20, 2008, 04:45 AM
The "Caps Lock" key on a C128 from English-speaking countries (let's not forget Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the U.K. by referring to it as a "US C128"... That's something I'd expect from other Americans...)
Ha, ha, America rules the world! I think Commodore didn't think a second about any other English-speaking countries than USA. They bulid an US C128 and sold it to them (It's Hobson's choice.), >:D
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 20, 2008, 04:45 AM
This seems like a feature that should have been implimented on ALL C128's... In my honest opinion, the Caps Lock key is not very useful. I don't think I've ever used it, except to see what it does... ;)
Yes, I think a second "international" charset would have been better than the caps lock function.
I forgot to tell you that not only the charrom is switched also the key table is changing to a country specific one. There are characters like §äöüÄÖÜßàáé ... and of course some keys (especially in Germany the x/y keys) are interchanged. So there is a second symbol printed on the key caps (mostly in grey, but that differs on the keyboard).
WTE
Y'all know that when we tried to upgrade the character ROM and then use that in C64 mode we got knocked on our ass right? Turns out we couldn't even moved the dot in the letter "i" without creating compatibility problems.
My guess would be that it was an accident when block copying font sources into what would become the project source. I wouldn't be suprised that someone in development would have looked at the set and thought it was the new one entirely. We also blew the reverse V in the process which wasn't caught by QA but was caught when they went to put Von Ertwine's name in the easter egg.
Bil
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 20, 2008, 04:45 AM
This seems like a feature that should have been implimented on ALL C128's... In my honest opinion, the Caps Lock key is not very useful. I don't think I've ever used it, except to see what it does... ;)
It would have been more useful had the c128 booted up in lower case mode.
Man, could that soccer ticket spammer have picked a deader thread to hit? Clueless bastard. :)
Quote from: airship on May 14, 2008, 01:51 AM
Man, could that soccer ticket spammer have picked a deader thread to hit? Clueless bastard. :)
Agreed.
(In case anyone is wondering what the heck airship is talking about, a spammer made an innocuous post with the only purpose being to advertise the links in their signature. The post has been deleted and their account is soon to follow.)