QuoteBoy you sure are having a lot of trouble finding a working program, LOL.

No kidding!--Seems like I'm spending days just to find a program that I may only use once for 20 seconds just to see whether my lightpen works or not!     Hope I'm not putting anyone out of their way looking for some art program--I never imagined it would be so difficult to find an archived lightpen program with all the resources on the net--and I'm more than willing to do the leg work on the net if anyone can just list me some other titles that use a lightpen.

Thanks for the info on .G64s.  Interesting--the main program file within the .D64 image of Koala Painter is only around 75K, and there are only a few other files--all between 5 and 10K.  Yet the .G64 image I downloaded is somewhere around (if not exactly) 326K.  I wonder if there's anything extra packed into this image (perhaps a cracked copy protection) that will help me get it up and running.  I'll see if Star Commander can read that .G64 when I get home today.  If not, I'll try to find some converter program.  And if it all fails then I'll probably just give up at this point--and go straight to programming it (or attempting to anyway).

As to the .NIB files--yes, they are 336K--I was looking at the opened .zip file in WinRAR while I typed my last post.  I wasn't sure if I had run across this extension for Commodore--each old computer system has so many associated image formats--I've delved into so many old computers in such rapid succession that I often forget which ones are which!  But I do remember that .NIB is an extension used in certain Apple II archives--maybe the link for Flexidraw is actually an Apple II version.

Oh man, sorry to keep bugging you but I'm stumped again... that download is a zip file containing two .NIB files..  I'm unfamiliar with this format--can Star Commander transfer these files or can it be converted to a .D64?  Also, I notice it's size is 336K whereas the .D64s I usually deal with are 171K; is this a DS DD image that requires a 1571 to read both sides?

Thanks, but once again it seems I can only find the joystick version.  Is there a particular key combination I need to hit to activate the pen?  Or is there a special lightpen version of Micro Illustrator as well?  None of the Micro Illustrator downloads at Poke Finder specify "lightpen".  Actually I was only able to download from 3 of the links anyway, the rest required a login.  The startup program file within the .D64 I got is actually called "micro ill.joy" leading me to believe it is the joystick version.  The other copy I downloaded is a single file, "microill.prg"--it has the same title screen as the other one, specifying to plug a joystick in port 2--so I think this is the same version.

The only other copy I was able to download from Poke Finder is a .G64 file--I'm not sure if I can access this type of file--aren't these for 1571 drives only?

<blockquote>

Quote
PS: Ruthven, I’m pretty sure light pens will only work in port 1 regardless of other considerations, because port 2 doesn't have the connection to that detection circuit. Anyone know if I’m remembering that correctly?

You remember correctly.

</blockquote>
Good, so that explains why it wasn't working in port 2.

Quote
Well, I hope some of that was helpful.  More importantly, I hope I didn't confuse you!

Very helpful, thanks!  I'm sure I'm bound to get confused once I start actually trying to implement these routines into my program... but it's good to have this information posted so I can refer back to it.  Unfortunately I'm still unable to properly test my lightpen as I can't get Koala Painter to work.  I've downloaded 3 or 4 different copies of the lightpen version, but they all crash--they start with a loading screen, then the screen clears to blue, then goes to a white screen with a grey border and hangs there.  When it hangs, the red light on the disk drive stays on after the disk stops spinning; this makes me suspect that it errored out, but is this just the drawing screen?--I tried drawing on the screen but no effect.

I would like to get this program working just to test the lightpen and make sure it's working properly before I start some complex BASIC program with it.  I downloaded every copy of the Koala Painter for lightpen I could find on Poke Finder--I couldn't find this program anywhere else on the net; all produced the results I described.  Of course, I'm not necessarily locked down to this particular program if someone can recommend another that uses a lightpen..(?)  I couldn't find a downloadable copy of Picasso's Revenge.

Thanks RobertB.  I'll have to give the screen a good cleaning when I get home.  Then I'll try to find the "Koala Pen" version of Koala Painter.  I've left the sensitivity control set to where it was working best in my program last night, so hopefully it will be good to go.

Ultimately I don't care so much about drawing lines on the screen with a light pen, however using the pen as a control device for my BASIC programs makes retro programming seem cooler than ever!

Thanks guys.

QuoteYes, I have that light pen.

I thought it was you who had said you'd used the McPen before and I was hoping you'd chime in!

QuoteHeh, I did it the other way.  I set the sensitivity dial all the way up and then brought it down until the light flickered off.

Interesting... do you hold the pen a 1/2 inch away from the monitor while you're adjusting the control, or do you actually touch the screen with it?  For me, no matter how close the pen is to the screen, if it's not actually touching the screen then the light stays on--no matter what the sensitivity is set to.  Generally, as soon as I touch the screen the light will go out (and my program reports coordinates), but it does not always continuously report coordinates when I hold the pen against the screen for a period of time (in other words, the light comes back on even though I'm still holding the pen against the screen and the program goes back to displaying zeros).  This is where the sensitivity control seems to help--on just the right setting, it seems to produce a quick flickering as I hold it against the screen (rather than the light just going out completely).  On this setting the pen seems to function more accurately within my program--the coordinates are updated much more consistently, not perfect--I still see the occasional zeros, but other numbers most of the time.

So perhaps I've got it working now--the remaining imperfections are likely caused by the lag time of BASIC itself.  Also, my program uses BASIC 7's PEN command to check coordinates; I wonder if PEEKing the appropriate addresses would be quicker/more efficient... perhaps compiling the program would improve it's performance as well.

I suppose the best way to make sure the pen is working properly is to test it with a drawing program.  I have Koala Painter but I cannot figure out how to select the light pen for input.  Can someone tell me what port it needs to be plugged into/what key stroke has to be made in the program to activate it?   

On a side note, I'm sure my monitor could use a good cleaning.. I'm wondering what should be used to clean a CRT screen?  I'm sure there's special solutions on the market, but will a water-dampened rag do the trick?  (I once cleaned my CRT TV with Windex and my friend told me I shouldn't have done it--that Windex can degauss the screen)

Ok, this is kind of late for me to bring this up as I first started a thread on this a couple years ago...  I had asked how to read a light pen in BASIC--and I thought I had gotten it to work--somewhat anyway; I didn't get to delve into it and then other things came up that made me forget about this little project for a while...  So I tried to get it fully working the other night in a simple BASIC program that constantly checks the status of the pen's X,Y coordinates and prints them on the screen.  Theoretically, the numbers that are displayed should be constantly changing as I move the pen around the screen, but it only seems to read a particular coordinate every now and then at random (i.e. most of the time the screen displays zeros for the X and Y coordinates--once in a while it quickly picks up where the pen actually is on the screen and displays a proper X,Y value but quickly goes back to zeros again).

The light pen I use is a "Madison Computer McPen"--I'm hoping someone here has some experience with this particular pen or a similar one...  it's a little different from other light pens in that the pen itself doesn't just plug directly into the joystick port; rather it plugs into it's own base (that acts as a pen holder) via a DIN-like plug, and the base plugs into the joystick port.  The base has a dial for sensitivity control and also a light that comes on when the computer is powered on.

According to the instructions on the bottom of the base, the light is supposed to come on when the computer is first powered on.  It then needs to be "calibrated" in a sense, in that the pen needs to be held 1/2 an inch from the screen with the sensitivity turned all the way down, then slowly raising the sensitivity until the light on the base goes out.  Here's where the problem lies--even setting the sensitivity at max, that light on the base never goes out.  I've even set the background color to white and turned the brightness all the way up while calibrating the sensitivity with no effect.

Occassionally the light on the base will go out briefly when I touch the pen on the screen--at this moment my program will report an actual X,Y coordinate (something other than 0,0).  But it doesn't continue to display that X,Y coordinate as I hold the pen against the screen--only for that initial moment that I first touched the pen to the screen, then quickly goes back to zeros even though I'm still holding the pen against the screen (in the same exact spot even).

Maybe this is because the sensitivity control hasn't been properly calibrated--but to aid me in this, can anyone who's familiar with the McPen just tell me: is the light on the base supposed to be on when the pen isn't touching the screen, and then go out when it is?--this seems to be the case with mine as my program displays coordinates of 0,0 as long as the base light is on (pen is not in use), and then when I touch the pen against the screen the light goes out and a coordinate is displayed.  This operation seems backwards from the way the instructions make it sound (in other words, I thought the light is supposed to go out once calibrated and only light up when the pen makes contact with the screen)...(?)

Thanks for reading.

Thanks.  I ended up downloading an msdos program, I think it was called CBM2ASC... actually, it's apparently for C64 BASIC, not C128--it mistranslated all the BASIC 7 exclusive commands, changing them to random POKEs, PRINTs, SAVEs etc.  I didn't realize this had happened at first, and I was looking through my printed code trying to figure out how this program functioned--thinking what was it that I had PRINTed and SAVEd so many times?! 

I knew something was up when I spotted a bunch of LIST commands in the middle of code.

So thanks for the tip, I'll give it a shot.

Does anybody know of a simple way to convert BASIC 7 programs into plain ascii text?--I want to get an old BASIC program over to my PC so I can print the source code...

(I use Star Commander to transfer files from the 1541 to the PC)

Thanks.

QuoteThere's something special about real VCOs and VCFs.

Yes indeed.  Which is why I need to get myself a true analog polyphonic synth one of these days...  Even if I end up getting a Synergy as that's technically digital (though it's so warm sounding).  I had actually looked into getting an AX-60 at one point and still check them out from time to time.  Currently I think I'm holding off for an old Kawai or Siel.

Anyway, getting back on topic here--I haven't been able to put Jugg'ler to the test yet as I don't own a 1571 drive (I'm currently bidding on one actually).  Everything I've done in CP/M land so far has been on the old 1541--which I was surprised I could actually use to write CP/M disks--so I guess Commodore's own CP/M format is GCR compatible?  This is interesting as most of what I've read on CP/M seems to generally associate this format with MFM.

Can't wait to get a 1571 though as CP/M is intolerably slow (even with the Warp Speed cartridge) using a 1541!  Which leads to a question--can the 1541 with Jugg'ler write any other formats (CP/M or otherwise) besides Commodore's own CP/M?  Or are all the other CP/M formats strictly MFM (non GCR compatible)?  Also, it seems I'm stuck in 40 columns with my composite input monitor... will Jugg'ler even run in 40 columns?--I mean, I got the program up and running but can only see half the screen's worth of text--I'm assuming it will still function providing I know what keystrokes to make (so I'm probably going to be simultaneously running it in an emulator in 80 col so I know what I'm doing!)...

Incidentally, I was talking with a guy who knows a thing or two about the Synergy and he swears that I cannot format a Kaypro disk on anything but a Kaypro computer--not even with a 1571 and Jugg'ler...  Makes me want to try it all the more of course...

QuoteHow did you get the Synergy? What did you pay? It must be a truecollector's item, and a really great synth to play around with too.

Ahhh.... well... I don't actually have a Synergy... yet...  I see that my original post makes it sound like I did.  I *want* a Synergy.. badly.  I almost bid on one yesterday--I had been following the auction all week.  Alas the seller was unable to test it so I held off, unsure of how much money I was willing to "risk".  It ended up selling for just over $450--which, really, is well worth it for parts alone (providing the synth didn't work).  Now if that synth is working, then the high bidder got himself one hell of a deal!  I'm kind of regreting my decision to bow out of that auction now--may never get a chance to score one so cheap again.

Anyway, before diving straight into this without knowing what I was up against, I learned as much as I could about this instrument and how to control it.  It seems most people who have these synths nowadays don't have a Kaypro to control it let alone the necessary software.  So to them the synth is basically a glorified preset keyboard, stuck with whatever sounds happened to be saved in it's onboard memory banks.  I wanted to make sure I'd be able to control this synth to it's full potential if I ended up dropping the big bucks.  So I found the system software for it, discovered it had to be in CP/M format for the Kaypro, and then thought--wait a minute: doesn't the C128 sport a CP/M mode?--could help...

So I posed the question here, figuring I may be able to recreate the software beforehand and hence be more sure of my future purchase.  Which is exactly what I've done now thanks to Hydrophilic in providing me the Jugg'ler image and the link for ctools.  Too bad I stepped out on that auction now.  But this hasn't all been for nothing--now that I know I have a working copy of the software, I'm more intent than ever in making this pipedream of mine a reality!  And it's cool to finally get some exposure to C128 CP/M.  In fact, the necessity of the C128's role in this whole process makes it that much cooler if you ask me.  Cool to put the Commodore to a "real tangible use" beyond simple hobby.. well, synths are just another hobby too I guess...  one hobby supplementing another--very cool!

Thanks very much for taking the time!  Actually, I went back to zimmers.net and downloaded a .D64 image of a "faster" CP/M system--there was a text file inside that showed how that .D64 was constructed using cformat / ctools... so I went back to zimmers.net specifically looking for ctools but could not for the life of me find it.  So thanks for that link--turns out it's under cbm/crossplatform/converters/unix (I didn't even realize it was linux code)--and I was hunting for it under "cpm".  And thanks for taking the time to learn how it worked, what with using the same directory and all.  It would have taken me all night to figure that out--especially in the tired state I was in by then.  And I was still up past 3am trying all this out (and then back to work by 7am)!  It was worth it though--I got Jugg'ler 128 working.  I also used ctools to write the Synergy control program to a CP/M disk...  and I actually got that old Kaypro software RUNNING on the C128!!  Too bad there's no built-in RS232, or I bet I could actually use the C128 to control the synth.

Just started learning about the C128's CP/M mode...  I have a specific task in mind that I'm assuming is possible: I'm attempting to recreate a program disk for the Kaypro II--specifically, it's the software that controls a giant old digital synthesizer known as the "DK Synergy".  I've managed to find the program files, but they need to be written to a 5 1/4" disk in Kaypro CP/M format.  I read a little about Jugg'ler 128 and feel this program is up to the task.  But first I need to figure out how to transfer Jugg'ler to a disk that I can access in CP/M mode...

It would be great if I could find Jugg'ler in .D64 format for download--then I would just use "copy disk" in Star Commander to re-create the disk.  This method worked great to make my initial CP/M boot disk and the supplement disk (with extra commands) as those disks were available as .D64 images.  But the only download link I can find for Jugg'ler (on zimmers.net) is in .LZH format.  Unfortunately Star Commander doesn't let you just "Copy disk" from the highlighted archive file like it does for .D64s--you can view the contents of it, but I am unable to copy each of the shown files individually--it returns some kind of error.

So I extracted the contents of the .LZH in Winrar and then wrote each of those files individually to a disk in Star Commander.  But in writing the disk this way, Jugg'ler is now on a CBM formatted disk which CP/M can't natively read.  Funny, I got a CP/M program (or maybe it's an "extension" or "command"--pardon my terminology) that reads CBM disks--only that too was in .LZH format, leaving me no way (that I know of) of transferring the raw files contained therein to a disk that can be read in CP/M.

So... are there any utilities for CP/M that can read CBM disks that I can download in .D64 format?  Or does anybody have (or know where to get) Jugg'ler 128 in a .D64?  Thanks for reading.

Ok, so I was confused on what you were talking about.  Thanks--that clears up a lot.  I thought the REU had something to do with the keyboard or the module itself and that you were telling me that one wasn't compatible with the other...

Ram Expansion Unit, huh?--shows how much I know about Commodores and their peripherals... 

I don't have an REU anyway so I guess I shouldn't run into any problems.  Thanks again!

That seems weird to me because I thought the keyboard was intended for the Sound Expander module specifically.  According to an article I read (http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/sfx.html), the keyboard is part of the SFX series and plugs directly into the sound expander module (see very bottom paragraph on that page).

Perhaps you have a different keyboard...?--there were several made apparently, all fairly rare--maybe you have the "Commodore MIDI Keyboard"...?

Or maybe I'm just confused as to what you're talking about--what exactly are the "REU" registers?

Thanks--just wanted to be sure and now I'm definitely going to try to get it.  Is it that big multiple octave piano keyboard that you're talking about overlaping with the REU registers?--do you suppose this is an NTSC/PAL compatibility issue or a C128/C64 compatibility issue?--not that it much matters--the auction I'm looking at doesn't include the keyboard anyway, though I had thought of purchasing one separate--not only to play around with the FM module, but to try to incorporate as a controller for my own synth program I'm working on...

I've wanted one of these for a while--now I might have an opportunity to purchase one, but I understand that they were made in Europe and pretty much only distributed there...  I'm wondering: do they work with NTSC machines, and do they work with C128s?--I don't currently own a working C64, but I will soon enough--just a matter of time...

Wow, thanks for that package you put together Hydrophilic!  I put it on 5 1/4" the other night and ran it on my C128.  I got a real kick out of your game!--It is very similar to a game I started making when I was in High School (in Quick Basic)... mine was also a space flight simulator; cockpit view, chasing down alien craft... complete with High School juevenile language (the cute little 3-eyed aliens (modeled after the ones from Toy Story) would come up on your scanner-view screen and swear at you when you shot at them).  You could also insult them by pressing F1-F4 (insults fully customizable, an idea I got from Wing Commander) which would result in them cursing you even more!  I never finished my game because I could not for the life of me get the computer to remember the coordinates of the enemy ship once it went off screen.  The game would have been so much cooler if I could have incorporated digitized voices like yours!  Was that your voice by the way?

Anyway, I haven't gotten a chance to delve too deeply into your code yet.  I haven't yet tried the wave converter or 4 bit player, but I'm going to try "Blitzing" it tonight to see what kind of speed difference there is between compiled/uncompiled BASIC... which leads me to my next question (definitely getting off original topic here): this weekend I tried Blitz! 128 for the first time on a C128 BASIC synthesizer program I was working on last February--after Blitz was done doing it's thing, the result was two files written to my disk--"Z/SYNTH" and "C/SYNTH".  Is one of these files supposed to be the compiled executable or is the original file (SYNTH) now compiled so that it should run faster?  I ask because both Z/SYNTH and C/SYNTH cause the Commodore to hang; the original file (SYNTH) still runs exactly as it did before--that is, it doesn't appear to run any faster.  When I compiled this, from Blitz's menu I chose "1" and later I tried "4"--these were the two options that involved a single drive, something to do with having "RESUME" on or off (I didn't know what it meant so I tried both options as separate tests)--I got no error messages either time.

To bring this back on topic here:

QuoteQuote
Is this software superior?  I'd like to a link if so...

     I consider it to be superior.  I don't know of any links to Digimaster.  I don't even know if Chris has released it as shareware or to the public domain, since it was a commercial product back in the 90's.  However, I think I have a phone number and address for him (it was so long ago that I visited him).  I can try to contact him.

I found Digimaster on NoGames64 (http://www.haddewig.de/nogames64/)--I can't get it to work though; it boots up to the main screen and then I can't do anything (can't move the arrow pointer).  I've tried the joystick in both ports--when connected to port 2, the "File" menu comes up for as long as I'm holding up on the joystick.  But I can't select anything--the button has no effect and the arrow pointer does not move when I move the joystick or hit any button on the keyboard.  So I guess this question is directed to you, RobertB--do you know if this software is controllable by mouse only?

Thanks for all the info guys.

QuoteIf you're going to learn ML, I recommend starting on a simple CPU like the 6502/8502 of the C128 or similar.  The intel pentium etc are truly horrendous!  Plus the C128 comes with a nice ML monitor built-in.

You make some good points about starting off with ML on a Commodore as opposed to a more modern machine.  In fact, now that I think about it--there's really no point in learning ML on a modern machine these days; computers are fast enough where you can do pretty much anything you want in an interpreted language, or even in a "specialty" home-brew language that is just designed for creating games for example.

QuoteI have a BASIC program for the C128 from back in the day that plays some digi-voice when you complete a level or die or win (actually, I don't think the game was winnable!)  Now that I have my uIEC, I'm gonna start retrieving those lost gems.  I'll make that one a priority for you.

If you can find that and send it to me (or post it here somewhere), I would appreciate it!  I'd like to have a look at that code.

QuoteIf you have some way to transfer files from your PC (like an X1541 cable or a uIEC), I would just convert your sound to an 8-bit mono (not stereo) wave file on the PC and transfer it to your Commodore.  Of course, you'd waste a lot of memory if you're only playing 4-bit digis, but it's simple!

I have one of those X1541 adapters that I use to transfer .D64 files to 5 1/4" disks.  What format would I have to save the 8 bit mono wave in to be playable on the Commodore?--standard .WAV or something more specific like Amiga's .IFF format?  What program(s) could I use to play these waves?--does this have to do with that Digimaster software Robert is talking about that can play 8 bit sounds?

QuoteNot to stray too far off-topic for this 128 forum, Digimaster included 64PlayFile and 128PlayFile, utilities which let you play the Digimaster File Format sounds without having to load up the editor.  There were 64Player and 128Player, machine language routines to be included in your Basic or machine language programs in order to play back Digimaster's DFF sound files.  There are also 64Routines and 128Routines, a collection of Basic routines for playing back DFF files in your Basic programs.  In version 1.1m, 64Player and 128Player are replaced with 64PlayIt! and 128PlayIt!

Actually, I think you've strayed back ON-topic by telling me how to access these samples from within BASIC--thanks!  I think I may have downloaded Digimaster and copied it to a floppy at some point--if not, I'll have to get it along with any other sampling (or sample manipulating) programs I can find.

I know I have the Programmer's Reference Guide somewhere; I'll have to check it out sometime...  Switching gears here, breaking off topic--can somebody tell me how sampling is generally accomplished on a Commodore?  I ran across a program once that supposedly made a sample from something pre-recorded on a cassette (through the datasette).  Is this the way all C64 sampler programs worked or is there some other way of sending an audio signal into the computer?  I ask because I recently stumbled into a C64 synth program that supposedly can take an incoming audio signal through the A/V input port... first off, I'm wondering if this refers to the port whose cable breaks off into composite plugs or the RF port--secondly, I thought both these ports were output only(?)  Anyway, the program is called "aSid" and I put it on a disk with Star Commander but I cannot get it to work on my C128 (in C64 mode)--maybe it's just not compatible on a C128 (or with the Warp Load cartridge I use), but supposedly the program lets you route the incoming sound through the SID filter and make changes to the filter (and sound going through it) in real time!  This seemed pretty unbelievable to me, but then I read that the SID was designed to support an audio input pin making it a capable effects processor.

I'm just wondering if any sampler programs make use of this A/V input method or if they generally get the audio through a datasette?  Because if they use a datasette, then I'll have to buy one--and I'd probably only buy a datasette if I needed it for this purpose.

At this point, I didn't think I would ever try picking up any new programming languages from scratch (as it took me this long just to get somewhat proficient in BASIC)--I also figured if I ever went so far as to delve into machine language, it would probably be on a more modern computer than Commodore.  However, I'm starting to reconsider--there's an auction I'm considering bidding on for a breadbox C64 that just happens to include an "absolute beginner's guide to ML", so who knows...

I did end up downloading Blitz! 128 and some other compiler for BASIC 2.0 back in February when I first joined this forum (per somebody's suggestion).  After all this time, would you believe I still haven't even tried them out!--just got sidetracked with so many things... I had downloaded them so I could compile a synthesizer BASIC program I was (still) working on in hopes that I could boost the speed between pressing a key and hearing a note sound.  If it makes my program run anywhere near 10x faster then maybe it'll just work...

Thanks--I kind of figured it wasn't built into BASIC but I had to ask--I try to get BASIC to do EVERYTHING (however slowly) simply because I don't know any other languages.  So it seems I'll have to learn some machine language/assembly to incorporate samples into my own programs...

Ok, another BASIC question: I'm wondering if it is possible to play digital audio samples through the fourth "virtual" SID channel from within BASIC?

I've never sampled anything into the Commodore before, but I'm considering checking it out, though I'll need to invest in a Datasette recorder.  I was just thinking, if I could actually make use of these 4 bit samples in a BASIC program, that would be ample motivation to delve into this.

Thanks... had to check--from the picture, the base seemed big enough where it might take batteries and that would just be a pain.  This seems cool though and I'm definitely going to try to acquire one now.

Oh yeah, I don't know what I was thinking but for a moment I forgot high def=LCD.  Hey, those McPen units don't require batteries, do they?